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Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:05:20 +0200
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From: Maurizio Vianello <mauvia@mate.polimi.it>
Subject: Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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I'm using Metapost for drawing figures. I use LatexMP for labels. I have a 
sytem which works, normally. Let'say I write a file mypic.mp which  goes 
like this:

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

input latexmp;
setupLaTeXMP(packages="lucidabr");
prologues:=2;

beginfig(1);
label(textext("$A(1)$"), (0,0));
endfig;
end

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
(I have the complete set of Lucida fonts purchased from Y&Y on my PC, and 
in normal tex\latex  documents all is OK).

I can see the PS output (mypic.1) through GV. I can include the output into 
a latex  file and view/print/convert into pdf as I wish, after running 
latex or pdflatex

My problem is:

I am not able to transform mypic.1 into mypic.pdf (I want just the picture, 
not a whole page with the picture in it)

I tried with epstopdf but I get a pdf file where the parenthesis around 1 
are missing (no problem with drawings per se): I see "A", I see "1", but no 
parenthesis around it.  For other eps files generated by other applications 
epstopdf works fine...and it works for metapost pictures with no labels, or 
for metapost pictures with labels using the default  fonts.

I was not able to solve the problem by fiddling around with packages, 
prologues (0,1,2), by adding a  verbatimtex part of the file to load 
encondings etc.

I saw that this is a known problem. After a search I made, I found out that 
someone suggested to use mps2eps and then epstopdf . Is this right? Is 
there around an executable for Win2K of this program? I tried to compile 
the perl version on my pc (I do not have C) but that gave me some errors 
and I have almost no knowledge of perl. Is there a simpler alternative?

Thanks to all,
Maurizio


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From: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
To: Maurizio Vianello <mauvia@mate.polimi.it>
cc: metafont@ens.fr
Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Maurizio Vianello wrote:

> Is there a simpler alternative?

I think the simplest way to do what you want is the following:

1.  Put your figure in an \hbox surrounded by a \vbox.

2.  Use the \wd and \ht of the \vbox to set \vsize and \hsize
    You can use \advance to leave a little room.  Alternatively, you
    can use \vskip, \hskip, \vfil, and/or \hfil within the boxes.

3.  Set \voffset and \hoffset appropriately.

4.  Use a "papersize" \special.

5.  Run TeX, or LaTeX, if you prefer.

6.  Run dvips.  You should now have a structured PostScript file
    with your illustration and it should be of the right size.

7.  Run ps2pdf to get your PDF file.

If you have multiple illustrations, you can call dvips with the -i and -S
options to have it output separate structured PostScript files.

There are other ways of doing this; this is the one I use.  It has the
advantage of not using any exotic packages.  It can also be automated
easily.  I use an Emacs-Lisp function to do it, but a shell script would
do as well.

If you want to try this, and my explanations are not sufficient,
I'll be happy to send you an example (though not with Lucida and
LaTeX).

Laurence Finston
http://www.gnu.org/software/3dldf/LDF.html

From - Wed Apr 20 03:01:32 2005
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Hi all,

Maurizio Vianello <mauvia@mate.polimi.it> has trouble using 
Lucida labels in MP figures.

Here's a relevant quip from Taco Hoekwater on the 
metapost@tug.org  list (Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:01:01 +0100):

 > MP doesn't
 > even produce valid EPS files at the moment. Font inclusion
 > [in MP] needs fixing first, and that is quite an undertaking.

Join the metapost@tug.org if you have time to work on 
improving font handling by MP.

One easy solution that is reliable today:-
Overlay labels on fontless  ".eps" output of MP using TeX -- 
which has reliable font handling. This involves: 

(a) a TeX macro package for labeling like "labelfig.tex"
on CTAN.

(b) an ".eps" integration package such as "boxedeps.tex"
on CTAN.

(c) A dvi-to-ps converter like "dvips".

(d) A ps-to-pdf converter like Acrobat Distiller or
"ps2pdf" (part of GS).

There are variants of (b) and (c) for "pdftex" in place of 
"TeX" and the pdftex@tug.org list will tell you about them. 
Also for "dvipdf" in place of "dvips"; see CTAN. 

Cheers

Laurent S.


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Maurizio Vianello wrote:
> I am not able to transform mypic.1 into mypic.pdf (I want just the 
> picture, not a whole page with the picture in it)

Using mptopdf is easiest solution:

1. run 'mpost mypic' (creates mypic.XXX)
2. run 'mptopdf mypic' (converts to mypic-XXX.pdf)

mptopdf is a perl script + tex format from Hans Hagen, and it is
included in most TeX distributions as part of the ConTeXt package.

If you do not have mptopdf installed, you can download it
(or the full ConTeXt package) from Hans Hagen's website:

   http://www.pragma-ade.com/context/current/cont-mpd.zip

Greetings, Taco

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Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Maurizio Vianello wrote:

> Thanks.

My pleasure.

> I understand that you are proposing the cleanest way to do what I
> need.

I think it's one clean way of doing it.

> I think that something like this would need to be automated in order
> to be used.

Actually, if you're not doing a lot of files at once, you can just
use the same TeX file.  Another possibility is to repeat the code in
a single TeX file as many times as you need.  I only recently
discovered the `-i' and `-S' options to `dvips' which make it possible to
generate separate PostScript files from a single dvi file.

One advantage to automating the process is that it makes it possible
to rename the eps files.  I've tried to use `\count' registers for
the numerical suffixes within a loop in TeX, but I couldn't get it
to work.  Therefore, I find it more convenient to rename the EPS
files output by MetaPost when I want to do this, e.g., `a.1' to `a_1.eps'.
For some reason, I could get looping to work when the names had this form.
I don't know what the problem is.
However, if you use an Emacs-Lisp function or a shell script to generate
your TeX code, you could just let it do the looping and not bother
changing the names.

> I'll try that out. Someone suggested to use mptopdf, a program
> from the people of "context " and it seems to work well, too,
> even if, as
> you say, that solution would depend on some fancy external program.

There's usually not just one way of doing something.
If you want to try it my way and have any questions,
please feel free to ask.

Laurence



From - Wed Apr 20 14:14:00 2005
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Subject: OT: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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Hi Maurizio & Laurence,

>>I'll try that out. Someone suggested to use mptopdf, a program
>>from the people of "context " and it seems to work well, too,
>>even if, as
>>you say, that solution would depend on some fancy external program.

Thankgod we all know that emacs is not even remotely like a fancy
external program :-)


Taco

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Hello Maurizio,

After my last posting I tried to put together an example, but I ran
into a couple of difficulties.  I have solved them now, up to a
point, and have attached the example.  In my family, we call this
"a fifteen minute job".

The difficulties involved `dvips'.  It didn't accept my papersize
special and insisted on using the default.  I've had this problem
before, but not always.  I don't understand why I have it sometimes
and sometimes not.  Perhaps I've accidentally chosen an acceptable
papersize at times.
Another problem is that it sometimes rotates the image 90%, which
I find extremely annoying.  I don't think it ought to be doing this.
At any rate, I've decided not to use the papersize special anymore.

The example includes the file `crop_0.tex'.  I have used the
command `\epsfverbosetrue' so that the dimensions of the image
`3DLDFmp.1' are output to the terminal.  I use DIN A4 as my paper size,
setting `\vsize' and `\hsize' appropriately.  I advance `\voffset' and
`\hoffset' by -1in, in order to get rid of the default margins.
I then center the image on the page.

I then run `dvips' which produces a structured PostScript file containing
one page in DIN A4 format with the image centered.  In order to cut it down
to the proper size, I use the `mogrify' program belonging to the
`ImageMagick' package:  `http://www.imagemagick.org/script/index.php'.
I use the `shave' option to remove space from the top, bottom, and sides
of the image:
`mogrify -shave 182.55456936491902x340.99049537893075 crop_0.ps'.
I've included a second PostScript file where I've called
`mogrify -shave 132.55456936491902x290.99049537893075 crop_0.ps'
instead, to leave a bit of space around the image.
The files are called `ttest.ps' and `ttest_0.ps'.

The `shave' option to `mogrify' expects its arguments to be in units of
pixels, so these need to be calculated.  I've included the calculation
in `crop_0.tex'.

It seems to work to use the `crop' option, too.  Unfortunately, it does
not seem to be possible to `shave' different amounts on the left and right
sides, or on the top and bottom.  There seem to be options for
adding space, and it's possible to use `undraw' in MetaPost, so it should
be possible to position the image precisely.  I am not an expert in the
use of ImageMagick.

In order to automate this procedure, it would be necessary to write the
output produced by `\epsfverbosetrue' to a file, read it out again, and
perform the calculations for finding the arguments to `mogrify'.
I'll probably work on this soon, since I need to create PNG files of
the correct size from my MetaPost images.

I've included my old Emacs-Lisp code in the file `cnepspng.el'.
I will need to change it to account for what I've written above.
There seems to be something wrong with `convert-eps-loop'.
The debugger is called if I try to use it.  It used to work, so
I don't know what happened.

If anyone has trouble opening the compressed archive file
(gzipped tar file), I've put all the files at:
`http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/3dldf/3dldf/
Group/CWEB/EXAMPLES/CROPPING/'.

Laurence



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Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Content-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.58.0504201649360.379030@gwdu71.gwdg.de>
Content-Description: 
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="TTEMP.tgz"

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--352865414-777395133-1114008576=:379030--

From - Wed Apr 20 17:13:19 2005
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From: Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>
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Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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Hi,

I don't claim to really understand what you are doing, but would
it perhaps be possible to call 'dvips -E' instead of manually
calculating the needed cropping and using mogrify?

Taco

Laurence Finston wrote:
> Hello Maurizio,
> 
> After my last posting I tried to put together an example, but I ran
> into a couple of difficulties.  I have solved them now, up to a
> point, and have attached the example.  In my family, we call this
> "a fifteen minute job".
> 
> The difficulties involved `dvips'.  It didn't accept my papersize

From - Wed Apr 20 18:47:31 2005
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Hi Laurence F.

It seems to me that your reply does not address the issue of
robust font integration.  But rather the issue of getting a
well-framed "eps" file.

Inversely, my reply addressed the font issue and neglected the well
well-framed and structured "eps" issue.

Together we have hopefully indicated all Maurizio needs.

Incidentally, I favor using TeX label overlays rather than the
MP label mechanism because they apply uniformly to all sorts
of graphics from all sorts of sources. I use more bitmapped
graphics than vectorial. Furthermore, the font storage for TeX
label overlays is optimally efficient; it is often attrocious
when labels are included in autonomous figure files.

Cheers

Laurent S.


PS. Thanks for the specifics on the dvips "papersize" \special
and the -i option.

PPS. The issue of well-framed and well-structured "eps" files
can be otherwise resolved by opening (fontless) MP output
files into Adobe Illustrator and resaving in a suitable format
(".pdf" included!!).  Last time I checked, this workaround
failed on MP labels.


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Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels


Hi Laurence F. and all,

I just wrote:

 > PPS. The issue of well-framed and well-structured "eps"
 > files can be otherwise resolved by opening (fontless) MP
 > output files into Adobe Illustrator and resaving in a
 > suitable format (".pdf" included!!).  Last time I
 > checked, this workaround failed on MP labels.

This is still true under classic PPC MacOS.  I have just tested
this with Laurence F.'s MP file called "3DLFmp.1".  It can be
parsed neither by Adobe Acrobat Distiller nor by Adobe
Illustrator until I remove the label and font material to
obtain "3DLFmp.1A". Then "3DLFmp.1A" is accepted by both
with good vectorial ".pdf" output. John Hobby's font handling
seems unacceptable to Adobe (?).

Curious fact:- "3DLFmp.1A" is not interpreted by Adobe Acrobat
Distiller as a 'well framed' eps file. On the other hand, output
files of MP with the setting 

   prologues:=2; %% Generate standard eps

(but without font stuff) are accepted. So I conjecture that
"3DLFmp.1" is NOT output by MP itself. Right?

When "3DLFmp.1A" is processed by Illustrator to
"3DLFmp.1A.eps" and then distilled to "3DLFmp.1A.pdf" the
result is 'well-framed', and I include it below in ".uu"
ASCII format.  Naturally, the "origin" label is missing.

Comments anyone?

Cheers

LS

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begin 777 3DLDFmp.1A_Ill.pdf
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Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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> I don't claim to really understand what you are doing, but would
> it perhaps be possible to call 'dvips -E' instead of manually
> calculating the needed cropping and using mogrify?

I don't know, and I don't have `dvips' on this machine, so I can't check.
If it works, I'd be happy to use it rather than calling an additional program.
  I've had the problem with unwanted rotation before.  In the past, I was able
to solve it by adding a label, hence the `origin' label in my image.  This
time it didn't work, though.  I hope the `-E' option will solve this problem,
too.

If it, or some other option or combination of options to `dvips', doesn't
solve the problem, I think the best solution would be to use `ghostscript'. 
Unfortunately, I don't know how to, and I know almost nothing about  the
PostScript language.  But since my solution seems to work, and doesn't require
me to install any new packages or spend hours reading documentation, I'll
stick with it.  Any suggestions for refinements would be welcome, of course.

It occurred to me that I don't need `\epsfverbose', since the dimensions of
the image are simply the size of the box containing it.  I'm pretty sure
`\dp0' == 0pt, but I should probably account for it anyway.  I think it should
be straightforward to write the dimensions of the box to a file from TeX using
`\write', but I can't check it now (no TeX on this machine, either).  I will
probably write a little C program to read in the data and call `dvips', etc. 
Nor do I need to calculate the conversion factor for converting points to
pixels twice, and I should probably round the results, since fractional pixels
cannot be represented.

It would be nice if I could write the values from MetaPost directly, but
unless this feature has been added, it's not possible to open and write to
files.  I could implement this in GNU 3DLDF, but that won't help MetaPost
users.

Thank you for your suggestion.  I'll try to test it tomorrow.

Laurence




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Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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> It seems to me that your reply does not address the issue of
> robust font integration.  But rather the issue of getting a
> well-framed "eps" file.

That's because I think it should work to  declare fonts in a `verbatimtex'
environment.  Admittedly, I use TeX rather than LaTeX.  I've been wondering
what the advantage is to using LaTeX for labels in MetaPost.  I don't usually
do very fancy things within labels.  I forgot to ask Maurizio whether he was
using math mode in his labels.  If not, it might work to just set `prologues'
to 1 (or is it 2?).

I did have a problem the other day:  I tried to put  the `verbatimtex'
environment with the `\font' declaration in a file that included another MP
file, where I wanted to use the font (it was cmr12 scaled to \magstep3, I
believe).   This didn't work, but once I put it in the included file, I had no
trouble.  I'll try including a font of my own design and see if it works.  I'm
optimistic that it will.  If it doesn't, I think the problem will be my
`texmf.cnf' file and not MetaPost.

> Incidentally, I favor using TeX label overlays rather than the
> MP label mechanism because they apply uniformly to all sorts
> of graphics from all sorts of sources. I use more bitmapped
> graphics than vectorial. Furthermore, the font storage for TeX
> label overlays is optimally efficient; it is often attrocious
> when labels are included in autonomous figure files.

As I said, there's usually more than one way to do something.  In order to
position the labels, one needs to know where to put them.  This is probably
obvious when making plain 2D graphics with MP, but it's not when using
projections, in particular, the perspective projection, with GNU 3DLDF.  It
would be possible to get the latter to output this information, and if anyone
ever asks for it, I'll probably implement it, since it shouldn't be too
difficult. 

> PS. Thanks for the specifics on the dvips "papersize" \special
> and the -i option.

You're welcome. 

> 
> PPS. The issue of well-framed and well-structured "eps" files
> can be otherwise resolved by opening (fontless) MP output
> files into Adobe Illustrator and resaving in a suitable format
> (".pdf" included!!).  Last time I checked, this workaround
> failed on MP labels.

Thanks for the tip.  However, I  tend to prefer solutions using programs that
I can call from the command line, so that I can automate them.  I also
strongly prefer using Free Software, since I can't include it in my package if
it's not (and also on general principles).  Is Illustrator free?  Of course,
it may provide a scripting facility, so someone who knows how to use it might
be able to implement an automated solution using it.

Laurence

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> (but without font stuff) are accepted. So I conjecture that
> "3DLFmp.1" is NOT output by MP itself. Right?

Wrong.  (Sorry to be so blunt).  It is output by MP itself.  The 3DLDF code is
in the file `sample0.ldf': 
http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/3dldf/3dldf/Group/CWEB/sample0.ldf
It's figure 1 (what I was working on most recently).   I can't generate the MP
output on this machine, but I'll send it to you tomorrow, if you want it.

Incidentally, it demonstrates that occlusion works for the vertical rectangle
and the bottom horizontal one, but not for the top one.  As long as I've got
you "on", I hope you don't mind if I take the liberty of asking you whether
there's an algebraic formula for the curve on a plane of projection
representing the perspective projection of a circle.
(I may take to button-holing mathematicians on the street.)

> Comments anyone?

I haven't had any problems with labels using MP the way I do.  As far as MP is
concerned, that's up to John Hobby, Taco, Hans, Karl, Jacko, and the other
developers, if  I've forgotten any .  If anyone using GNU 3DLDF feels it's a
problem, than I suppose I shall have to implement support for overlays using
TeX.  It seems like a reasonable alternative to labels and I might be able to
implement it in such a way that users don't notice any difference.   Perhaps I
could add an option to determine which style to use.  I admit that I _hate_ it
when MP fails because of an error in a label string.

Laurence

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Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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> I have not been following this discussion very closely, but MetaPost
> certainly does allow you to write to files.  It is documented in
> "Drawing Graphs with MetaPost":
>   write <sting expression> to <filename>
> or
>   readfrom <filename>

Thanks, that may simplify things.

Laurence 

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Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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> I don't claim to really understand what you are doing,

If you or anybody else is interested, I would be quite happy to explain.

Laurence

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Hi Laurence F. and all,

 > In order to position the labels, one needs to know where to
 > put them.

labelfig.tex and boxedeps.tex are semi-interactive. The main
prerequisite for interactivity is fast preview.

 > I also strongly prefer using Free Software, since I can't 
 > include it in my package if it's not (and also on general 
 > principles). 

So do I.  But Adobe is not just another commercial. Adobe is
author ane maintainer of PostScript and PDF on which TeX and MF
now largely depend.  Learning what Adobe applications refuse to
parse is to learn what those standards are *not* at least for
now. The phrase "it's not a bug -- its a feature" applies here.
I suspect MP is a bit out of step with Adobe re fonts --
perhaps because MP was programmed before Adode made some key
decisions.  This is just a guess.

 > Of course, it [Illustrator] may provide a scripting facility...

Yes. But commandline apps are indeed simpler to program.

Cheers

Laurent S.


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Hi Laurence F. and all,


 > Wrong...It is output by MP itself.

With "prologues:=2"
as required for eps output???

With that setting, Distiller should have responded
correctly to the resulting MP output. On the other hand, my
GhostView does not give the bounding box EPS commant the
blindest bit of attention.

 ----------

 > I hope you don't mind if I take the liberty of asking you
 > whether there's an algebraic formula for the curve on a plane
 > of projection representing the perspective projection of a
 > circle. (I may take to button-holing mathematicians on the
 > street.)

On the image plane it is a conic section, ie an ellipse, a
parabola, or hyperbola. 

The image on the retina of the observer is an ellipse or part
thereof.

What sort of formulae do you want? Bezier or Nurbs? Implicit or
Parametric? With respect to which coordinate system?  For such
nitty gritty, I'll probably defer to the
comp.graphics.algorithms newsgroup where the full time experts
lurk.

 -----------

 > I haven't had any problems with labels using MP the way I do.

One problem is that you are chained to dvips. Or to mptopdf.
TeX label overlays let one use any TeX implementation.
On my classic Mac it is not the dvips implementations that
have the most comfortable and adequate type1 font setup.
And I fear that mptopdf is simply not implemented.

 > I admit that I _hate_ it when MP fails because of an error in a
 > label string.

Because the processing is diabolically complex.  With TeX label
overlays it's your most familiar TeX setup at work.

Cheers,

Laurent S.


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Taco,

I wrote:

> And I fear that mptopdf is simply not implemented
> [on classic Mac].

In fact, what are all the current prerequisites for running
mptopdf?  I have the vague impression that it involves pdftex
emacs and perl.

Cheers

Laurent S.




From - Thu Apr 21 08:43:07 2005
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Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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Larry Siebenmann wrote:
> Taco,
> 
> I wrote:
> 
> 
>>And I fear that mptopdf is simply not implemented
>>[on classic Mac].
> 
> 
> In fact, what are all the current prerequisites for running
> mptopdf?  I have the vague impression that it involves pdftex
> emacs and perl.

The actual conversion is done using a format file for pdftex,
and mptopdf.pl is a perl script that is nothing other than a
small wrapper around a pdftex command line.

In normal usage, it comes down to this:

   pdfetex &mptopdf \relax <filename>.<digits>
   rename <filename>.pdf <filename>-<digits>.pdf

Where you have give <filename> on the command-line.

If the Mac classic doesn't have pdfetex, it will not work.
Otherwise, you could ignore the perl script, and execute the
command yourself. That should work, but you have to figure
out how to execute the command on a classic (I do not know).


Taco

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Larry Siebenmann wrote:
> Hi Laurence F. and all,
> 
> 
>  > Wrong...It is output by MP itself.
> 
> With "prologues:=2"
> as required for eps output???
> 
> With that setting, Distiller should have responded
> correctly to the resulting MP output. 

Only when the Distiller itself knows about the used fonts,
otherwise there will ben an /undefinedfont error. MetaPost
converts tfm names to postscript font names, but it does
not actually download the font to the eps output.

Taco

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Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Larry Siebenmann wrote:

> With "prologues:=2"
> as required for eps output???

I don't understand this.  I don't set prologues so that I can use TeX
fonts.  I need to do this because I use a lot of math mode in my labels.
There may be PostScript or other fonts that can be used with math mode,
but I haven't gone into this.  To the best of my knowledge, the files
output by MP when prologues is left unset (or set to 0?) is Encapsulated
PostScript.

> On the image plane it is a conic section, ie an ellipse, a
> parabola, or hyperbola.
>
> The image on the retina of the observer is an ellipse or part
> thereof.
>
> What sort of formulae do you want? Bezier or Nurbs? Implicit or
> Parametric?

Implicit and/or parametric.  The latter would probably be most useful.
I'm currently at work on polygons, i.e., plane figures made up of straight
lines.  The next steps are polyhedra and then circles and ellipses,
followed by the other conic sections.  Arbitrary curves implemented as
NURBs are rather far off, I'm afraid.  Straight lines are providing quite
enough intellectual stimulation at the moment.  However, I would like to
know about the projections of ellipses and the other conic sections, if
I'm not trying your patience too much.  The real problem is finding the
intersections in order to decompose the objects.

> With respect to which coordinate system?

That of the plane of projection.  I suppose the origin could most
conveniently be the projection of the origin in the world coordinate
system, but perhaps someone has a better suggestion.

>
>  > I haven't had any problems with labels using MP the way I do.
>
> One problem is that you are chained to dvips.

Indeed.  There are other dvi-to-something drivers, but I haven't looked
into this topic.

> Or to mptopdf.

I don't usually use PDF.  For my work, I don't see any
advantage to using it rather than PS.

> TeX label overlays let one use any TeX implementation.

I'm convinced of the usefulness of this approach.

Laurence

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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> I don't claim to really understand what you are doing, but would
> it perhaps be possible to call 'dvips -E' instead of manually
> calculating the needed cropping and using mogrify?

I've checked the dvips manual, and the `-E' option causes it to
produce EPSF, which I assume is what I've been calling EPS,
i.e., Encapsulated PostScript.  However, the whole point of
the exercise is to convert EPS, as output by MP, to
structured PostScript.  Somebody once used this term;  in
the course of working on this problem I saw the term "standard
PostScript" somewhere.  So I'm afraid using the `-E' option
won't work.  I'm a bit pressed for time, otherwise I would
double-check this.  However, having been through this in the
past, I'm fairly certain that it won't work.

Dvips seems to operate on the assumptions that one wants to
print a document on a printer, use a paper size corresponding
to actual paper, and that all of the pages of the document
should be printed on paper of the same size.  These seem
like reasonable assumptions, but do not apply in the present
case, causing me to jump through all sorts of hoops.  It may
be possible to write a configuration file for an imaginary
printer that will accept any paper size, but I don't know
whether it's worthwhile trying to do this, at least for me.
ImageMagick seems to be included in all of the GNU/Linux
distributions I use, and I don't think it was installed
specially.  I'm afraid I'm usually not much help to people
using Windows.

To summarize:
The problem is converting the EPS produced by MP to other
formats.  ImageMagick's `convert' can't convert it to PNG
and I'm fairly sure that `ps2pdf' can't convert it to PDF
(not double-checking these things, either).  The problem
seems to be, as Laurent S. has pointed out, the fonts.
Converting the EPS files to structured PostScript solves the
problem.  My method doesn't actually convert
them, it includes them in a TeX file of the same size as the
image. It's easy to put borders around the image either in
MetaPost, TeX, or by using `mogrify'.  Since dvips seems to
have problems with non-standard paper sizes, I just use a
standard one, put the image in the middle, and use `mogrify'
to cut off the edges.

I plan to write a little C program to automate the process
and I'll put it in the CVS archive on Savannah for GNU
3DLDF, if anyone wants it.  I need this myself, so I'll
probably do it within the next couple of days.

Of course, someone might have a better solution, or just
prefer a different one.

Laurence

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Laurence Finston wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> 
> To summarize:
> The problem is converting the EPS produced by MP to other
> formats.  ImageMagick's `convert' can't convert it to PNG
> and I'm fairly sure that `ps2pdf' can't convert it to PDF
> (not double-checking these things, either). 

If you are not interested in investigating available solutions,
you can of course invent your own. But clearly you have not
read the PostScript manuals, or you would not have to use new
vocabularies like 'standard postscript' to express the semantic
entity Adobe calls 'Encapsulated PostScript [File]' or EPS[F],
for short.

Greetings,

Taco

PS You are aware of the fact that PostScript is not what you would
call 'free', right? It is just as proprietary as PDF; both being 
designed, published, copyrighted, trademarked and controlled by
Adobe Inc.

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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> If you are not interested in investigating available solutions,
> you can of course invent your own.

I don't quite get your point.  TeX, dvips, and ImageMagick are all
available.  All I've done is combine them.  Other suggestions specifically
involved PDF, which I'm not particularly interested in.  I'm perfectly
happy to use `ps2pdf' to convert PS to PDF.

> But clearly you have not
> read the PostScript manuals,

I've already stated that I know virtually nothing about the PostScript
language.  I've had a couple of books out of the library, but it hasn't
seemed urgent to learn it, since I've been able to muddle through without
it, so far, as in this case.

> or you would not have to use new
> vocabularies like 'standard postscript' to express the semantic
> entity Adobe calls 'Encapsulated PostScript [File]' or EPS[F],
> for short.

I got the impression that standard PostScript was a synonym for structured
PostScript, or perhaps the correct term.  I believe I read the term
last night in the dvips manual and that this
kind of PostScript format differs from Encapsulated PostScript.
In particular, I don't believe it's possible to include a structured PS
file, say, generated by means of TeX and dvips, in another TeX file using
`\epsffile'.  I'm not double-checking this, and I
think it's conceivable that there's some way of making it work.

> PS You are aware of the fact that PostScript is not what you would
> call 'free', right? It is just as proprietary as PDF; both being
> designed, published, copyrighted, trademarked and controlled by
> Adobe Inc.

Documentation for GNU packages can be distributed as PostScript and PDF
files, so apparently the FSF/GNU Project doesn't have a problem with
them.  This is good enough for me.  I use the term "Free Software" in the
sense of the GNU General Public License.  I am not trying to impose my
views on anyone.  I was responding to a specific suggestion made by
Laurent S.

Laurence

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On 2005-04-21 12:36:05 +0200, Laurence Finston wrote:
> I've already stated that I know virtually nothing about the PostScript
> language.  I've had a couple of books out of the library, but it hasn't
> seemed urgent to learn it, since I've been able to muddle through without
> it, so far, as in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript
http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/ps/index_specs.html

Your "structured postscript" is DSC:
http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/ps/5001.DSC_Spec.pdf

Best regards
        Martin

PS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetaPost :-)
-- 
                    http://www.tm.oneiros.de

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Laurence Finston wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote:
> 
> I don't quite get your point.  

My point was that where you now apparently go through a complex bit
with mogrify cropping A4 or letter sized pages generated by dvips,
you can just use *only* dvips to get the same effect, by using it's
-E commandline (it makes dvips create pages that are the exactly the
size of the 'bounding box' of the stuff on the DVI page).

> TeX, dvips, and ImageMagick are all
> available.  All I've done is combine them.  Other suggestions specifically
> involved PDF, which I'm not particularly interested in.  I'm perfectly
> happy to use `ps2pdf' to convert PS to PDF.

So you go through these steps

  mp->tex->dvi->ps (pstopdf optional, dvi unwanted)

mptopdf does

  mp->tex->pdf->ps (pdf unwanted)

both are fine.

I was just amazed why you wanted/used mogrify.

Taco


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From: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
To: Larry Siebenmann <laurent@math.toronto.edu>
cc: mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr
Subject: Re: your mail
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Larry Siebenmann wrote:

>  So I conjecture that
> "3DLFmp.1" is NOT output by MP itself. Right?

Just in case you feel like experimenting some more, I've included the
3DLDF code and the MetaPost code it generates below.

Laurence

*****************************************
%%%% crop_0.ldf

%%%% This file is part of GNU 3DLDF, a package for three-dimensional drawing.
%%%% Copyright (C) 2003, 2004, 2005 The Free Software Foundation

[...]

string s;

s :=    "input boxes; defaultdx:=.75cm; defaultdy:=.75cm;";

pickup pencircle scaled 3;

verbatim_metapost s;

focus f;
set f with_position (-5, 5, -10) with_direction (-5, 5, 10)
   with_distance 10;

rectangle rp[];

picture save_picture;

rp0 := unit_rectangle scaled 5 rotated 90;

rp1 := unit_rectangle scaled 5 shifted (0, -1);
rp2 := unit_rectangle scaled 5 shifted (0, 1);


beginfig(1);

draw rp0 with_draw_color blue;
draw rp1 with_draw_color red;
draw rp2 with_draw_color yellow;

save_picture := current_picture;

clear current_picture;

filldraw rp0 with_draw_color blue with_fill_color orange;
filldraw rp1 with_draw_color red with_fill_color green;
filldraw rp2 with_draw_color yellow with_fill_color violet;

dotlabel.top("origin", origin);
endfig with_focus f with_surface_hiding;

end;

*****************************

%%%% crop_0.mp.
%%%% Generated on Thu Apr 21 12:41:26 2005
%%%% from crop_0.ldf by GNU 3DLDF 1.2.0.0.

input boxes; pickup pencircle scaled .25mm;defaultdx:=.75cm; defaultdy:=.75cm;
beginfig(1);
fill (7.500000cm, -7.500000cm) -- (7.500000cm, -6.000000cm)
   -- (2.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- (2.500000cm, -7.500000cm)
   -- cycle withcolor (1.000000, 0.647059, 0.000000);
fill (7.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- (6.000000cm, -4.800000cm)
   -- (2.000000cm, -4.800000cm) -- (2.500000cm, -6.000000cm)
   -- cycle withcolor (0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000);
fill (7.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- (7.500000cm, -2.500000cm)
   -- (2.500000cm, -2.500000cm) -- (2.500000cm, -6.000000cm)
   -- cycle withcolor (1.000000, 0.647059, 0.000000);
fill (10.000000cm, -8.000000cm) -- (7.500000cm, -6.000000cm)
   -- (2.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- (3.333333cm, -8.000000cm)
   -- cycle withcolor (0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000);
fill (3.333333cm, -5.333333cm) -- (10.000000cm, -5.333333cm)
   -- (6.000000cm, -3.200000cm) -- (2.000000cm, -3.200000cm)
   -- cycle withcolor (0.933333, 0.509804, 0.933333);
draw (3.333333cm, -5.333333cm) -- (10.000000cm, -5.333333cm)
   -- (6.000000cm, -3.200000cm) -- (2.000000cm, -3.200000cm)
   -- cycle
withcolor (1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000) ;
label.top(btex origin etex, (5.000000cm, -5.000000cm))
;begingroup
interim linecap := rounded;
drawdot (5.000000cm, -5.000000cm) withpen pencircle scaled dotlabeldiam;endgroup;
endfig;


From - Thu Apr 21 13:11:50 2005
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Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <Pine.OSF.4.58.0504191806340.346877@gwdu71.gwdg.de> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <Pine.OSF.4.58.0504201335440.374689@gwdu71.gwdg.de>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------080907050004030008090707
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
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Hi Laurence,

Perhaps the TeX attachment is useful?

Usage:

   tex runcrop
or
   tex \\def\file{crop} \\input runcrop

Then, afterwards, do

   dvips -E -i -S 1 runcrop


Bye, Taco

Laurence Finston wrote:

> One advantage to automating the process is that it makes it possible
> to rename the eps files.  I've tried to use `\count' registers for
> the numerical suffixes within a loop in TeX, but I couldn't get it
> to work.  Therefore, I find it more convenient to rename the EPS
> files output by MetaPost when I want to do this, e.g., `a.1' to `a_1.eps'.
> For some reason, I could get looping to work when the names had this form.
> I don't know what the problem is.
> However, if you use an Emacs-Lisp function or a shell script to generate
> your TeX code, you could just let it do the looping and not bother
> changing the names.
> 
> 
>>I'll try that out. Someone suggested to use mptopdf, a program
>>from the people of "context " and it seems to work well, too,
>>even if, as
>>you say, that solution would depend on some fancy external program.
> 
> 
> There's usually not just one way of doing something.
> If you want to try it my way and have any questions,
> please feel free to ask.
> 
> Laurence
> 


--------------080907050004030008090707
Content-Type: application/x-tex;
 name="runcrop.tex"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename="runcrop.tex"


\expandafter\ifx\csname file\endcsname \relax
  \let\file\jobname
\fi

\input epsf 

\nopagenumbers
\newread \testin
\newcount \looper
\looper=0
\loop \ifnum\looper < 4096
   \pageno=\looper
  \immediate\openin \testin \file.\the\looper \relax
  \ifeof\testin
  \else
    \hbox{\epsffile{\file.\the\looper}}%
    \vfill\break
  \fi
  \closein\testin
  \advance\looper1
\repeat

\bye


--------------080907050004030008090707--

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From: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
To: Taco Hoekwater <taco@elvenkind.com>
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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> My point was that where you now apparently go through a complex bit
> with mogrify cropping A4 or letter sized pages generated by dvips,
> you can just use *only* dvips to get the same effect, by using it's
> -E commandline (it makes dvips create pages that are the exactly the
> size of the 'bounding box' of the stuff on the DVI page).

Yes, but it cannot be converted to PNG using convert.  At least it
couldn't the last time I tried.  I also believe that it can't be
converted to PDF using `ps2pdf'.  I think I tried this, too, but it
would be worth double-checking.

> So you go through these steps
>
>   mp->tex->dvi->ps (pstopdf optional, dvi unwanted)

Yes.  I wouldn't say that the dvi file was unwanted, though.
It might be useful for debugging purposes.  If someone wants PDF, I
suppose `pdftex' would do the trick.  I don't know how EPS files are
included when using `pdftex'.  In general, I prefer to use Knuth's own
software (and John Hobby's MP, of course), rather than similar software
written by others.  For example, I prefer to use CWEB rather than any of
the other literate programming tools and plain TeX rather than LaTeX.
Again, I'm not trying to impose my views on others, but I do feel that
it's a point of view that new users of TeX, MF, MP, etc., often don't
hear.

>
> mptopdf does
>
>   mp->tex->pdf->ps (pdf unwanted)
>
> both are fine.

I agree.  How do you get from pdf to ps?  Does mptopdf do this
itself or does one have to call pdf2ps?

I got the following error when I tried `mptopdf':

mptopdf 3DLDFmp.1
This is pdfeTeX, Version 3.14159-1.00a-pretest-20011114-ojmw-2.1 (Web2C
7.3.7)
(./3DLDFmp.1
Error: mptopdf (file pdftex.cfg): cannot open config file

This looks like a problem with the installation, so it's no criticism of
the technique.  However, it does make me not want to bother pursuing it,
having found another solution.  Just as having to install ImageMagick
might make my solution unattractive to someone else.

> I was just amazed why you wanted/used mogrify.

Since I was forced much against my will to generate PS output in a
standard paper size, I needed a way of cutting off the edges.
`mogrify' did the trick.  In general, I've been very satisfied with
ImageMagick and I'd like to learn to use it better.

Laurence

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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote:

> Perhaps the TeX attachment is useful?

Very nice, thanks.  I assume you've tested it, so I'll take your word for
it.  I'll try it out when I get the chance.

Laurence

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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:17:18 +0200
From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Schr=F6der?= <martin@oneiros.de>
To: metafont@ens.fr
Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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On 2005-04-21 13:15:14 +0200, Laurence Finston wrote:
> This is pdfeTeX, Version 3.14159-1.00a-pretest-20011114-ojmw-2.1 (Web2C

This is ancient. Please update.

Best regards
        Martin
-- 
                    http://www.tm.oneiros.de

From - Thu Apr 21 16:26:09 2005
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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:26:04 +0200 (MEST)
From: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
To: liste metafont <metafont@ens.fr>
Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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Hello,

I have attached a compressed archive file containing the files listed below.
I've also uploaded them to
`http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/3dldf/3dldf/Group/CWEB
/EXAMPLES/CROPPING/'.

cnepspng.web:  A CWEB file containing code for a program that
               crops PostScript files.
               It's still in a fairly crude form, but since it seems to
               work as far as it goes, I thought someone might be interested.
               Eventually, I'll have it write the TeX file and generate PNG
               files (and PDF, if desired).  I also plan to add arguments
               for the borders.
               It could be refined in lots of ways, but I have no more time for
               it today.

               To use it, run the following commands:

               ctangle cnepspng
               gcc -o cnepspng -g -lm cnepspng.c
               tex crop_0
               dvips -i -S 1 -o crop_0ps. -p 1 -l 5 crop_0
               cnepspng crop_0  1 4

               It works for me;  I hope it does for you, too.

cnepspng.c:    The C code generated from cnepspng.web, for those without ctangle.

crop_0.tex:    The TeX file for including the EPS files.  Eventually
               it will be generated automatically by `cnepspng'.
               After TeX is run, dvips must be called as follows:

               dvips -i -S 1 -o crop_0ps. -p 1 -l 5 crop_0

               The first page, numbered 0 in TeX, must be empty, or
               `\immediate\write' doesn't work.  I don't know why not.
               Perhaps someone on this list knows.

               Information about the size of the boxes is written to
               `crop_0.msm', which is read by `cnepspng'.


crop_0.1
crop_0.1
crop_0.2
crop_0.3
crop_0.4:      The EPS file included by crop_0.tex.

I hope someone finds this useful.

Laurence




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From - Fri Apr 22 16:21:55 2005
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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:21:49 +0200 (MEST)
From: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
To: Maurizio Vianello <mauvia@mate.polimi.it>
cc: metafont@ens.fr
Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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--352865414-1220555211-1114179709=:469751
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hello,

I have now revised `cnepspng' so that it runs TeX, `dvips',
`mogrify', and `convert'.  Given the files
`crop_0.1', `crop_0.2', `crop_0.3', and `crop_0.4',
it creates the following files:
crop_0_1.png
crop_0_1.ps
crop_0_2.png
crop_0_2.ps
crop_0_3.png
crop_0_3.ps
crop_0_4.png
crop_0_4.ps

`cnepspng' takes 1 required argument, namely the filename of the EPS
files without the extension, e.g., `crop_0':

cnepspng crop_0

The other arguments are optional:

Argument 2:  The number of the first EPS file to be processed, default 1.

Argument 3:  The number of the last EPS file to be processed, default 100.

             `cnepspng' loops from n == argument 2 to n == argument 3.
             It breaks off if <filename>.n doesn't exist.

Argument 4:  The size of the border to the left and right of the image,
             default 1cm.

Argument 5:  The size of the border at the top and bottom of the image,
             default 1cm.


For example, to create structured PostScript and PNG files from
`image.2', `image.3', `image.4', and `image.5' with 2.5cm of blank
space at the left and right and 37.65pc at the top and bottom, call
`cnepspng' like this:

cnepspng image 2 5 2.5cm 37.65pc

The compressed archive file contains the following files:
cnepspng.c
cnepspng.web
crop_0.1
crop_0.2
crop_0.3
crop_0.4

I have also uploaded them to:
http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/3dldf/3dldf/Group/CWEB/
EXAMPLES/CROPPING/

Unless there are any questions, I will not be reporting any
more changes to `cnepspng'.  I will continue to upload it to Savannah,
but I will probably put it in another directory.  The log
entry for
`cnepspng.web' at the URL listed above will indicate where I've put it.

If anyone decides to try it out, I'd appreciate it if he or she would let
me know about any problems.  Thanks.

Laurence
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From: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
To: Maurizio Vianello <mauvia@mate.polimi.it>
cc: metafont@ens.fr
Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Laurence Finston wrote:
>
> I have now revised `cnepspng' so that it runs TeX, `dvips',
> `mogrify', and `convert'.

IMPORTANT!!  Please note that `cnepspng' creates and deletes
temporary files, so that if you want to create a structured PostScript
and a PNG file from `<filename>.<suffix>', `cnepspng' will create and delete
`<filename>_<suffix>.tex', `<filename>_<suffix>.log',
`<filename>_<suffix>.dvi', and `<filename>.msm'.
The `.msm' file doesn't use the suffix.
So if you already have files with these names, you should back them up
before running `cnepspng'.

Laurence

From - Fri Apr 22 19:20:51 2005
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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:20:04 -0500
From: Dan Luecking <luecking@uark.edu>
Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels
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At 05:34 PM 4/20/2005, you wrote:


>Hi Laurence F. and all,
>
>  > In order to position the labels, one needs to know where to
>  > put them.
>
>labelfig.tex and boxedeps.tex are semi-interactive. The main
>prerequisite for interactivity is fast preview.

All one needs is some sort of environment (such as the picture environment)
arranged to have a coordinate system that matches that of the figure. Then
one can use the same coordinates to place text that one would have used to
place it in the .mp file. The TeX/LaTeX package mfpic, which creates either
.mf or .mp figures, does this automatically: arranging for the text placement
macros to use the same coordinate system as the drawing macros.


>I suspect MP is a bit out of step with Adobe re fonts --
>perhaps because MP was programmed before Adode made some key
>decisions.  This is just a guess.

More likely Hobby didn't want to supply fonts, and couldn't rely on
the availability of any particular set of fonts on any particular system,
and so left font inclusion (AFAIK the only place MP output fails to be
standard EPS) to external programs such as dvips.


Dan


Daniel H. Luecking
Department of Mathematical Sciences
University of Arkansas
"Be kind. Every person you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Anon.


From - Fri Apr 22 22:01:14 2005
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From: Larry Siebenmann <laurent@math.toronto.edu>
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To: laurent@math.toronto.edu, lfinsto1@gwdg.de, metafont@ens.fr
Subject: button-hole problem
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Hi Laurence F. and others,

   Having been button-holed as follows on Wed, 20 Apr 2005
22:54:47 +0200:

 > I hope you don't mind if I take the liberty of asking you
 > whether there's an algebraic formula for the curve on a plane
 > of projection representing the perspective projection of a
 > circle. (I may take to button-holing mathematicians on the
 > street.)

I answered "off-the-cuff":

 > On the image plane it is a conic section, ie an ellipse, a
 > parabola, or hyperbola.

If you almost understood this answer, read on; otherwise stop
right here.

When you get a simple answer to a simple geometric question
in computer graphics,  BEWARE that it is likely to be no more
than "generically true". That's the case here. There are
other things you can sometimes get by projecting a circle in
3-space from a point onto a plane.  For example, if the
projection point is on the target plane, which happens to be
disjoint from the circle, then the projected circle is the
EMPTY SET.

However, from an answer that is generically true one can
usually (with some work)  deduce the general answer -- which
is often rather complicated and correspondingly OBSCURE.  For
example, the generic (and stable) affine classification of
complete bezier cubic loci (forgetting parameters) is just
twofold: doublepoint versus inflexion pair. But the full
classification is a bit of a mess. See the MP list for
details

Incidentally, the parabolic case above is not generic or
stable *unless* one considers movies, or one states that the
union

(elliptic case) \cup (parabolic case) \cup (hyperbolic) case)

is stable and generic.

 ----------------

I went on to say:

 > The image on the retina of the observer is an 
 > ellipse or part thereof.

The retina of the eye of an observer is (mathematically) not
a plane but rather a small sphere around the center of the
eye. So what did I mean by an ellipse on the retina??

I meant the intersection, with that sphere, of a cone having
center the eye's center, and with base an ellipse in a well
chosen plane far from the eye.

My statement has this interesting corollary: A (generic)
photograph of a small piece of an ellipse cannot be
distinguished from a photograph of a small piece of of a
hyperbola or parabola.  Crime labs beware!

 ----------------

As for algebraic formulae, I assume you are happy with
pointwise execution so I suggest you just compose two
perspectivities in R^3:

(1) the given perspsectivity projecting from the given circle
to the target plane in 3-space.

(2) the perspectivity with center the eye of the (imaginary)
television camera, that maps from the mentioned target
plane to the computer screen.

This lets you move any number of points from your original
circle to the computer screen in such a way that you "see"
on the screen the given projection of the circle.

Once you have 5 points of the screen image, you can (if you
wish) get all other points on screen by programming
2-dimensional Pascal's theorem in MP.

Cheers

Laurent S.


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From: Larry Siebenmann <laurent@math.toronto.edu> 

>>> [is there] an algebraic formula for the curve on a plane
>>> of projection representing the perspective projection of a
>>> circle?

> I answered "off-the-cuff":
> 
>  > On the image plane it is a conic section, ie an ellipse, a
>  > parabola, or hyperbola.
> 
> If you almost understood this answer, read on; otherwise stop
> right here.

After I posted my question, I was somewhat mortified when I remembered
something about circles in perspective always being ellipses.  When I thought
about it some more, I wasn't sure whether this was perhaps only true of
circles in planes parallel to one of the main planes (x-y, x-z, or z-y).  I
have a couple of plastic templates of perspective ellipses---they are still
available in stores, but are probably destined to go the way of the slide
rule.  I believe that a circle that is coplanar with the ray of vision and
perpendicular to the plane of projection must be a straight line.  Perhaps
others are really all elliptical; I wish I knew how to figure this out.  At
any rate, I regretted not having asked about conic sections in the first
place.  I'd also be interested in knowing about the effect of non-affine
transformations on them other than the perspective transformation, if I
haven't exhausted your patience already.  I suspect this is probably something
that I won't be able to understand, though.

> For example, if the
> projection point is on the target plane, which happens to be
> disjoint from the circle, then the projected circle is the
> EMPTY SET.

Wouldn't it be a point, namely the projection point, or what I call the focus?
 And wouldn't the projections of all other objects in the 3D space be that
same point?  In GNU 3DLDF, this would imply that the `distance' element of the
`Focus' object would be 0, which would probably fail anyway, probably because
of a division by 0 somewhere.  

> 
> However, from an answer that is generically true one can
> usually (with some work)  deduce the general answer -- which
> is often rather complicated and correspondingly OBSCURE.  For
> example, the generic (and stable) affine classification of
> complete bezier cubic loci (forgetting parameters) is just
> twofold: doublepoint versus inflexion pair. But the full
> classification is a bit of a mess. See the MP list for
> details

I'm working on non-arbitrary geometric figures because they're easier 
than Bezier curves.  Consider the task of dividing a polyhedron using a plane.
 From a mathematician's point of view, this is trivial, but programming it
will certainly take me quite a few hours.  In fact, I have already spent many
hours working on the "preliminaries", which are features in their own right. 
Once it works, it should be possible to extend it to dividing a polyhedron by
another polyhedron.  I'm looking forward to making a sequence of pictures with
two polyhedra passing through each other.  However, I still have a couple of
unsolved problems involving the occlusion of two polygons, so I'll have to
solve them first.

I have also given quite a bit of thought to representing what I am calling
"ellipse slices" and "circle slices".  These are the figures resulting from
dividing ellipses and circles by straight lines and/or other ellipses 
and circles, once or multiple times.  Someone has been kind enough to explain
to me how one can find the intersections of two ellipses algebraically, but
unfortunately I don't have the mathematical background to understand the
explanation.  This is by way of explaining why I'm not in such a hurry to get
stuck into Bezier curves.

> 
> Incidentally, the parabolic case above is not generic or
> stable *unless* one considers movies, or one states that the
> union
> 
> (elliptic case) \cup (parabolic case) \cup (hyperbolic) case)
> 
> is stable and generic.
> 

Would it be possible to express these ideas in words of one syllable?

> I meant the intersection, with that sphere, of a cone having
> center the eye's center, and with base an ellipse in a well
> chosen plane far from the eye.
> 

This is interesting, but I think it may not be of practical importance for
3DLDF.  So far, I've been satisifed with projection onto a plane.  Should I be
concerned with the intersection of spheres and cones and the center of the
eye?  This is a genuine question.

>  ----------------
> 
> As for algebraic formulae, I assume you are happy with
> pointwise execution 

I'm not sure.  I've been thinking about this lately.  In some ways, it's
useful to have the individual points available.  In other ways, it might be
useful to just store the center of an object and a transformation matrix.  I
haven't made a decision about this yet.  If you have an opinion, I'd be quite
interested to hear it.

> so I suggest you just compose two
> perspectivities in R^3:

> 
> (1) the given perspsectivity projecting from the given circle
> to the target plane in 3-space.
> 
> (2) the perspectivity with center the eye of the (imaginary)
> television camera, that maps from the mentioned target
> plane to the computer screen.
> 
> This lets you move any number of points from your original
> circle to the computer screen in such a way that you "see"
> on the screen the given projection of the circle.

What I do is the following:  A `Focus' contains a `Point' representing the
position of the "camera" in space and another representing the direction of
view.  The "up" direction is determined somehow, I don't remember how, and can
be modified by using a `real' value for an angle of rotation.  These values
are used to determine a transformation which would place the position point
and the direction point on the z-axis and the plane of projection into the x-y
plane.  This transformation is then applied to all of the objects in the space
before applying the perspective transformation.


> 
> Once you have 5 points of the screen image, you can (if you
> wish) get all other points on screen by programming
> 2-dimensional Pascal's theorem in MP.

I'll have to look up Pascal's theorem.  I'm afraid my reach exceeds my grasp
when it comes to math.

Thank you; I appreciate your help very much.

Laurence


From - Sat Apr 23 01:46:03 2005
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From: Peter Vanroose <peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org
Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem
To: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>,
        Larry Siebenmann <laurent@math.toronto.edu>
Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org
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> On the image plane it is a conic section, ie an ellipse, a
> parabola, or hyperbola.
...
> After I posted my question, I was somewhat mortified when I
> remembered something about circles in perspective always being
> ellipses.

No, circles can indeed project as a parabola or a hyperbola.
Take the following example:

- project onto a horizontal plane.
- place a circle vertically with its lowest L point on that plane.
- take as projection "eye" point P any point which is at the same
height above the plane as the highest point H of the circle.

In this case the projection is a parabola, with its top in L and its
axis parallel to the line PH.

If you want a hyperbola, move the eye point P a bit down (towards the
projection plane). If you want an ellipse, move P upward.


--	Peter.

From - Sat Apr 23 01:57:58 2005
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From: Peter Vanroose <peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org
Subject: Re: [metafont] button-hole problem
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> For example, if the projection point is on the target plane,
> which happens to be disjoint from the circle, then the projected
> circle is the EMPTY SET.

No, in this case it's the projection point.
Which actually is a special case of a circle: one with radius 0.
So even in this case the projection of the circle is a conic section
(which is actually a circle).

The only situation where the projection is empty, is when the
projection point is in the same plane as the circle, and the projection
plane is parallel to this plane.
(Actually, in that case the projection is a line interval at infinity.
So in projective space the projection is again non-empty. And again a
conic section, now a degenerate ellipse.)


--	Peter.

From - Sun Apr 24 07:36:37 2005
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Hi Laurence F.

 Me> For example, if the
 > projection point is on the target plane, which happens to be
 > disjoint from the circle, then the projected circle is the
 > EMPTY SET.

 You> Wouldn't it be a point, namely the projection point

You are quite right, I boobed; as Peter Vanroose further
explained, a cone on an empty set is not empty but the cone
point.  Unfortunately, programmers usually have to
pay attention to degenerate cases -- they are like
accidents waiting to happen.

 > occlusion of two polygons

??? whazzat?

I mentioned radial projection of objects in R^3 onto
the spherical retina of an imaginary eye. You answered:

 > This is interesting, but I think it may not be of
 > practical importance for 3DLDF.

You can ignore it.  But it is helpful to consider
because the sphere (eye) with opposite points
identified is a model of projective 2-space RP^2.  One
in which no particular line at infinity is has privilege
and in which the compactness of RP^2 is obvious. It is
natural since God gave your users spherical eyes and a
preception of projective geometry through them.

 > it might be useful to just store the center of an
 > object and a transformation matrix.

I favor 3-dimensional scenes which one can journey through
with a computer. 

 > What I do is the following:  A `Focus' contains a
 > `Point' representing the position of the "camera" in
 > space 
 > ....
 > `Focus::position'

This would be the center C of my eye.

 > and another representing the direction of view.
 > ....
 > `Focus::direction'

This is direction CP, where P is the center of the pupil
of my eye.

 > The "up" direction is determined somehow, I don't
 > remember how, 

It is determined by gravity via the inner ear, I
believe.

 > and can be modified by using a `real'
 > value for an angle of rotation.

OK. But, my eye tends to resist that modification.  
Stand in front of a mirror and tilt your 
hear to one side.  Do not your eyes not stay upright?
Of course this mechanism is switched off sometimes
for astronauts and athletes.

 > These values are used to determine a transformation
 > which would place the position point and the
 > direction point on the z-axis and the plane of
 > projection into the x-y plane.  This transformation
 > is then applied to all of the objects in the space
 > before applying the perspective transformation.

Let me try to understand using a model eye or camera.

Are you, in other words, introducing a new oriented isometric
coordinate system on 3-space: origin at the center C
of the eye, the z-axis running from that center out
through the center of the 'pupil' P? The y-axis
'vertical', and the x-axis 'horizontal'.

The retina or film F  can be thought of as the
translate of the xy plane distance m in the positive
z-direction. This m is zoom magnification if we think of
the eye as a *simplified* camera.

Then a "view" or "photo" of 3-space is obtained by
radial projection through C onto F. 

 > Objects that can't be projected are culled in
 > `Picture::output()'

The projection can be restricted to map only 
objects in the half-space of positive z, onto the 
film F. The film can be cut down to a finite part 
F0 of F, presumably a neighborhood of the origin.  
The cut-down film then sees just scenery in the 
positive cone on F0 with center C. Occultation is a 
major problem I won't explain. Also color 
luminosity texture shadow, reflection, transparency 
-- gasp. 

If one is to be able to tour through 3D scenes, a
model of this complexity seems necessary.

All this is guesswork.  Is is consistent with *some*
3D graphics system?

Cheers

Laurent S.

PS. As in photography, the center C can move far 
from the scenery of interest, though F0 will stay 
relatively close.  The projection onto F 
then becomes parallel to the z-axis.  But it seems 
advisable allow freedom for C to tour
in all 3-space. 


From - Sun Apr 24 08:41:22 2005
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From: Peter Vanroose <peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org
Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem
To: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
Cc: Larry Siebenmann <laurent@math.toronto.edu>, metafont@ens.fr,
        help-3dldf <help-3dldf@gnu.org>
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> The way I do perspective projection implies that the plane of
> projection is always perpendicular to the line from
> `Focus::position' to `Focus::direction', which are both `Points'.

Ah, so if I understand well, you are using parallel projection?
This is indeed a special case of projective projection, where the
"eye" point is far away (strictly speaking: at infinity).



--	Peter.

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Début du message réexpédié :

> De: Jacques Vernin <pir2.jv@wanadoo.fr>
> Date: 24 avril 2005 08:09:23 GMT+02:00
> À: Larry Siebenmann <laurent@math.toronto.edu>
> Objet: Rép : [metafont] Re: button-hole problem
>
> Quaesturam una petiit et sum ego factus prior. Non est respondendum ad 
> omnia.  Neque enim uestrum quelquam fugit, cum multi pares dignitate 
> fiant, unus autem primum locum solus possit obtinere, non eundem esse 
> ordinem dignitatis et renontiationis proptera quod renuntiatio gradus 
> habeat, dignitas autem sit perseape eadem omnium. Sed quaestura 
> utriusque prope modum pari momento sortis fuit. Habuit hic lege Titia 
> prouinciam tacitam et quietam, tu illam qui, cum quaestores 
> sortiuntur, etiam adclamari solet, Ostiensiem non tam ....
>
>
> Le 24 avr. 05, à 05:21, Larry Siebenmann a écrit :
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Laurence F.
>>
>>  Me> For example, if the
>>> projection point is on the target plane, which happens to be
>>> disjoint from the circle, then the projected circle is the
>>> EMPTY SET.
>>
>>  You> Wouldn't it be a point, namely the projection point
>>
>> You are quite right, I boobed; as Peter Vanroose further
>> explained, a cone on an empty set is not empty but the cone
>> point.  Unfortunately, programmers usually have to
>> pay attention to degenerate cases -- they are like
>> accidents waiting to happen.
>>
>>> occlusion of two polygons
>>
>> ??? whazzat?
>>
>> I mentioned radial projection of objects in R^3 onto
>> the spherical retina of an imaginary eye. You answered:
>>
>>> This is interesting, but I think it may not be of
>>> practical importance for 3DLDF.
>>
>> You can ignore it.  But it is helpful to consider
>> because the sphere (eye) with opposite points
>> identified is a model of projective 2-space RP^2.  One
>> in which no particular line at infinity is has privilege
>> and in which the compactness of RP^2 is obvious. It is
>> natural since God gave your users spherical eyes and a
>> preception of projective geometry through them.
>>
>>> it might be useful to just store the center of an
>>> object and a transformation matrix.
>>
>> I favor 3-dimensional scenes which one can journey through
>> with a computer.
>>
>>> What I do is the following:  A `Focus' contains a
>>> `Point' representing the position of the "camera" in
>>> space
>>> ....
>>> `Focus::position'
>>
>> This would be the center C of my eye.
>>
>>> and another representing the direction of view.
>>> ....
>>> `Focus::direction'
>>
>> This is direction CP, where P is the center of the pupil
>> of my eye.
>>
>>> The "up" direction is determined somehow, I don't
>>> remember how,
>>
>> It is determined by gravity via the inner ear, I
>> believe.
>>
>>> and can be modified by using a `real'
>>> value for an angle of rotation.
>>
>> OK. But, my eye tends to resist that modification.
>> Stand in front of a mirror and tilt your
>> hear to one side.  Do not your eyes not stay upright?
>> Of course this mechanism is switched off sometimes
>> for astronauts and athletes.
>>
>>> These values are used to determine a transformation
>>> which would place the position point and the
>>> direction point on the z-axis and the plane of
>>> projection into the x-y plane.  This transformation
>>> is then applied to all of the objects in the space
>>> before applying the perspective transformation.
>>
>> Let me try to understand using a model eye or camera.
>>
>> Are you, in other words, introducing a new oriented isometric
>> coordinate system on 3-space: origin at the center C
>> of the eye, the z-axis running from that center out
>> through the center of the 'pupil' P? The y-axis
>> 'vertical', and the x-axis 'horizontal'.
>>
>> The retina or film F  can be thought of as the
>> translate of the xy plane distance m in the positive
>> z-direction. This m is zoom magnification if we think of
>> the eye as a *simplified* camera.
>>
>> Then a "view" or "photo" of 3-space is obtained by
>> radial projection through C onto F.
>>
>>> Objects that can't be projected are culled in
>>> `Picture::output()'
>>
>> The projection can be restricted to map only
>> objects in the half-space of positive z, onto the
>> film F. The film can be cut down to a finite part
>> F0 of F, presumably a neighborhood of the origin.
>> The cut-down film then sees just scenery in the
>> positive cone on F0 with center C. Occultation is a
>> major problem I won't explain. Also color
>> luminosity texture shadow, reflection, transparency
>> -- gasp. 
>> If one is to be able to tour through 3D scenes, a
>> model of this complexity seems necessary.
>>
>> All this is guesswork.  Is is consistent with *some*
>> 3D graphics system?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Laurent S.
>>
>> PS. As in photography, the center C can move far
>> from the scenery of interest, though F0 will stay
>> relatively close.  The projection onto F
>> then becomes parallel to the z-axis.  But it seems
>> advisable allow freedom for C to tour
>> in all 3-space.
>>
>>
>>
> Jacques Vernin
> piR2
> 10, Boulevard de Brazza
> 13008 Marseille
>
>
Jacques Vernin
piR2
10, Boulevard de Brazza
13008 Marseille




From - Sun Apr 24 15:19:02 2005
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From: "Laurence Finston" <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
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Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:21:14 +0200
Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Re: button-hole problem
To: Martijn van Manen  <vanmanen@myself.com>
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I wrote:

> The perspective transformation is created by taking an
> identity matrix and setting persp[2][2] = 0 and persp[2][3] = 1/distance
> (indexing starts at 0).  This is why distance may not be 0.

Sorry, this should be Focus::persp.matrix[2][2] and Focus::persp.matrix[2][3].
 Didn't mean to sow confusion.  `persp' is a `Transform' and 
`matrix' is a `Matrix', which  is a `typedef' for  `real[4][4]'.   `real' is a
`typedef' for either `float' or `double', depending on how precise you want to
be (currently `double' in my sources). 

Laurence
 

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Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem
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> Ah, so if I understand well, you are using parallel projection?
> This is indeed a special case of projective projection, where the
> "eye" point is far away (strictly speaking: at infinity).

I have implemented perspective projection using a `Focus' and parallel
projection onto the three major planes.  For example:

focus f;

set f with_position (-5, 5, -10) with_direction (-5, 5, 10) 
   with_distance 10;

picture p;

beginfig(1);
circle c;
c := unit_circle scaled 2 rotated (15, 30, 60);
draw c;
p := current_picture;
endfig with_focus f; %% perspective projection is the default.

beginfig(2);
output p with_projection parallel_x_y;
endfig;

beginfig(3);
output p with_projection parallel_x_z;
endfig;

beginfig(4);
output p with_projection parallel_z_y;
endfig;

Laurence

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From: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
To: "L. Nobre G." <nobre@lince.cii.fc.ul.pt>
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Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Re: button-hole problem
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, L. Nobre G. wrote:

> >From the experimental physicist point of view the perspective projection
> of a circle on a plane is "allways" an ellipse.
> But
> the projection of the center of the circle is "not" the center of the
> ellipse.

How can this be reconciled with what Laurent S. and Peter have written?
Again, in words of one syllable, if possible, please.

Thanks.

Laurence

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From: "Laurence Finston" <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
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Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:55:03 +0200
Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Re: button-hole problem
To: Martijn van Manen  <vanmanen@myself.com>
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Martijn van Manen wrote:

> Here is my eternal sorry again for not participating
> a lot. I really am sorry, but I just don't have the time.

No need to apologize.  I know you're busy, that's why I haven't bothered you.

> > What I do is the following:  A `Focus' contains a `Point' representing the
> > position of the "camera" in space and another representing the direction
of
> > view.  The "up" direction is determined somehow, I don't remember how, and
can
> > be modified by using a `real' value for an angle of rotation. 
> 
> Here is a crucial point in my opinion. What is the "Up" direction?

> I wanted very much to use 3DLDF for an article. So I did some
> experiments. But I could not get it right. I tried stuff with
> the focus and the distance, but to no avail. In what source file
> do I find how the "Up" direction is determined?
> Line whereabouts?

The "up" direction is that direction, which will correspond to the direction
of the positive y-axis in the projection.  It's determined in the `Focus'
constructor currently at line 9053 in the file `CWEB/points.web'.  For
simplicity, I describe only the case that the projection is performed by (in
effect) placing Focus::position on the negative z-axis and using the x-y plane
as the plane of projection.  This is the default, and if you're using 1.2.0,
this is what will happen, because I haven't made it possible to use the other
axes, since it doesn't matter a bit which axis one uses.

In fact, the Focus is never transformed, the transformation is applied to the
objects in the space.  Focus::up starts out as the point (0, 1, 0).
Focus::transform is the transformation that aligns the line Focus::position --
Focus::direction with the z-axis with position at the origin and direction on
the positive z-axis.  If an `angle' argument is specified, up is rotated
around the z-axis by this angle.  Then it is multiplied by the inverse of
Focus::transform.  Finally, Focus::transform is shifted by (0, 0,
-Focus::distance).  The perspective transformation is created by taking an
identity matrix and setting persp[2][2] = 0 and persp[2][3] = 1/distance
(indexing starts at 0).  This is why distance may not be 0.

The point is that the plane of projection is specified by position and
direction.  I could just as easily specify direction by using position and an
normal vector for the plane of projection.  The way it is now, "up" can be
rotated freely around the line from position to direction.  If you need a
better way of setting "up", let me know what you want and I'll try to
implement it.  I don't think this would be too difficult.

> 
> Pascals theorem by the way roughly says that through any five points in
> the plane there is a unique ellipse.
> An ellipse is given by an equation
> 
> a x2 + bxy + cy2 + d x + e y = 1 
> 
> So if you have five points, you get five unknowns a,b,c,d,e and
> five equations. So you can determine a solution. 
> Ofcourse, a mathematician would know say that I'm retarded. He/she
> would be right, but this I think is the computational essence.

Thank you.

Laurence

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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Peter Vanroose wrote:

> > For example, if the projection point is on the target plane,
> > which happens to be disjoint from the circle, then the projected
> > circle is the EMPTY SET.

> The only situation where the projection is empty, is when the
> projection point is in the same plane as the circle, and the projection
> plane is parallel to this plane.

This is interesting.  Objects that can't be projected are culled in
`Picture::output()' in 3DLDF.  I will have to test this case.

> (Actually, in that case the projection is a line interval at infinity.
> So in projective space the projection is again non-empty. And again a
> conic section, now a degenerate ellipse.)

Thanks again for your help.

Laurence

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From: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
To: p.vanroose@ieee.org
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Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem
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On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Peter Vanroose wrote:


> No, circles can indeed project as a parabola or a hyperbola.
> Take the following example:
>
> - project onto a horizontal plane.

What does horizontal mean in this context?  The way I do perspective
projection implies that the plane of projection is always perpendicular to
the line from `Focus::position' to `Focus::direction', which are both
`Points'.  I have also implemented parallel projection onto the x-y, x-z,
and z-y planes, but it isn't clear to me that the projections of circles
wouldn't be ellipses, except for the cases where they are circles (which
are also ellipses, of course) or straight lines (which could be termed
degenerate ellipses, I suppose).

> - place a circle vertically with its lowest L point on that plane.
> - take as projection "eye" point P any point which is at the same
> height above the plane as the highest point H of the circle.
>
> In this case the projection is a parabola, with its top in L and its
> axis parallel to the line PH.
>
> If you want a hyperbola, move the eye point P a bit down (towards the
> projection plane). If you want an ellipse, move P upward.
>

Thank you very much.  I'll try this out as soon as I get a chance.

Laurence

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From: "Laurence Finston" <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:35:38 +0200
Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Re: button-hole problem
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L. Nobre G. wrote:

> The projection of a circle will not be an ellipse *only* when the circle
> touches (parabola) or crosses (hyperbola) the plan, parallel to
> the projection plan, containing Focus::position. Everything on this plan
> projects at infinty. This kind of projection is not computable. Avoid it.
> Forget it.

Thanks, that's very clear.

> Now, the center of the projected ellipse is the projection of the circle's
> center *only* when the circle is parallel to the projection plan and when
> the circle's center is on the line --Focus::position--Focus::direction--.

So is a perspective projection of a conic section always a conic section?  I
suppose it would be too good to be true if any transformation of a conic 
section would also be a conic section, but are there one or more classes of 
transformations for which this is true?  Shearing (an affine transformation)
can make an ellipse non-elliptical, but since it remains a closed curve, it is
neither a parabola or a hyperbola.  Is there a name for this kind of curve? 
And is there a  way of finding out _what_ curve the projection the projection
of a conic section is, i.e., finding an implicit or parametric equation to
describe it?  It's no problem to transform it to a convenient position and
then put it back where it was.  Have you solved these problems in FEATPOST?

Thank you very much again for all your help.

Laurence

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> Unfortunately, programmers usually have to
> pay attention to degenerate cases -- they are like
> accidents waiting to happen.

I get some pleasure out of it.  It appeals to my sense of pedantry.

> 
>  > occlusion of two polygons
> 
> ??? whazzat?

I mean handling the case where the projection of one polygon occludes the
projection of another, in whole or in part, given a particular focus.
I have implemented this for two polygons, as shown in a sequence of ten images
at the top of the GNU 3DLDF website:
http://www.gnu.org/software/3dldf/LDF.html
It works here, however there are a couple of problems, as you can see from the
images I used as examples for `cnepspng'.  By the way, I discovered some old
code where I used the `-T' option to `dvips', so perhaps it won't be necessary
to use `mogrify', after all.

My idea was to divide the 3D objects in space so that the resulting objects no
longer intersect.  This works to a certain extent.  When outputting a
`Picture', the objects on it can be sorted in three different ways:  by the
maximum z-value of the `Points' belonging to that object, the minimum z-value,
or the mean of these two values.  The z-value is that of the projection of the
`Point', which results from multiplying the world coordinates by the
transformation matrix representing the perspective transformation.  This value
is not output to the file of MetaPost code, since a `Point' projected onto the
x-y plane doesn't have a z-value, and MP has two-dimensional `pairs', not
three-dimensional `Points', but it is proportional to the distance of the
`Point' to `Focus::position'.  In fact, I don't divide the z-value by the
w-coordinate after the transformation, as I do for the x and y-coordinates.  I
programmed this quite a long time ago and I don't remember how it works, but
when I recently tried to perform this division, the z-coordinate always became
0 (actually, its absolute value always became < Point::epsilon).  This
division isn't necessary, anyway, since all I need are the relative distances
of the `Points' from Focus::position.

However, the problem is that while the objects may not intersect, their
projections might, and using the maximum, minimum, or mean z-values doesn't
provide enough information for performing occlusion correctly.  In addition,
the loops I use for comparing the objects on a `Picture' are somewhat
complicated, and I've probably made a couple of mistakes somewhere.  Nobre has
explained that in FEATPOST, he uses the pyramids whose bases are the polygons
and whose points are his equivalent of Focus::position for occlusion.  I
believe the intersections of these polygons can be used to determine which one
is in front, but I'm still trying to figure this out.

> You can ignore it.  But it is helpful to consider
> because the sphere (eye) with opposite points
> identified is a model of projective 2-space RP^2.  One
> in which no particular line at infinity is has privilege
> and in which the compactness of RP^2 is obvious. It is
> natural since God gave your users spherical eyes and a
> preception of projective geometry through them.

Okay, I'll bear this in mind.

>  > it might be useful to just store the center of an
>  > object and a transformation matrix.
> 
> I favor 3-dimensional scenes which one can journey through
> with a computer. 

Of course, `Points', `Paths', or whatever would need to be generated when 
they are needed for a given operation, like showing or outputting.

>  > The "up" direction is determined somehow, I don't
>  > remember how, 
> 
> It is determined by gravity via the inner ear, I
> believe.

For a person, yes, but you can rotate a camera about the axis from the
aperture to the focus (or whatever it's called), it doesn't care.

> Of course this mechanism is switched off sometimes
> for astronauts and athletes.

In traditional perspective drawing, one usually has a ground plane.  There is
no concept of a ground plane when using transformation matrices.  One can use 
the x-z plane if one wants to, but there's no need to.  This is one reason why
the results of setting setting Focuses in 3DLDF might be counter-intuitive.

> Let me try to understand using a model eye or camera.

> Are you, in other words, introducing a new oriented isometric
> coordinate system on 3-space: origin at the center C
> of the eye, the z-axis running from that center out
> through the center of the 'pupil' P? The y-axis
> 'vertical', and the x-axis 'horizontal'.

Yes.  The C++ code makes it possible to use different axes, but since the
results are completely equivalent, I haven't made it possible to access this
functionality interactively (using 1.2.0).

Your description of the technique is entirely correct.

> Occultation is a 
> major problem I won't explain. 

To the best of my knowledge, the standard approaches to occultation use raster
information.  There are good reasons for this.  They are computationally
expensive but straightforward.  My approach is to divide objects and their
projections until they don't intersect.  This requires being able to find
their intersections.  To my dismay, I've discovered that intersection theory
is a non-trivial branch of mathematics, so I may not be able to implement a
complete solution to this problem for all types of curves.

> Also color 
> luminosity texture shadow, reflection, transparency 
> -- gasp. 

I've made a start on luminosity and transparency, which are two sides of the
same coin, and reflection.  Shadows can be implemented as a form of
projection, or by using raster-based rendering techniques.  So I'm in no
danger of running out of things to do.

> If one is to be able to tour through 3D scenes, a
> model of this complexity seems necessary.

Indeed.  As one of the immutable laws of programming states: "There is no free
lunch".

> All this is guesswork.  Is is consistent with *some*
> 3D graphics system?

Yes, as far as I know, all of them.  You have stated the problems very clearly
and accurately, and any canned solutions would be very welcome.

Thanks again.

Laurence

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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:43:39 +0200
Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Re: button-hole problem
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-------------------
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Laurence Finston wrote:

> > Shearing (an affine transformation)
> > can make an ellipse non-elliptical, but since it remains a closed curve,
it is
> > neither a parabola or a hyperbola.  Is there a name for this kind of
curve?
> 
> Ellipse.

Point taken.  I'll have to try this and see what it looks like.  I imagined it
differently.

> > And is there a  way of finding out _what_ curve the projection the
projection
> > of a conic section is, i.e., finding an implicit or parametric equation to
> > describe it?
> 
> Of course: project six points and solve ax2+by2+cxy+dx+ey+f=0.

I'll have to look up how to do this.  I think there's a way to do it with
matrices.  

> But be "carefull" out there

I will.   Those stellated icosahedra have sharp points.

Thanks.

Laurence

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Hi Peter, and all,

Concerning radial projection in R^3 from a finite point X to a finite plane P
not containing X, you (Sat, 23 Apr 2005) discussed the image of a
circle C in R^3 that is in the plane P' parallel to P and containing X.

> The only situation where the projection is empty, is when the
> projection point is in the same plane as the circle, and the projection
> plane is parallel to this plane.
> ...
> (Actually, in that case the projection is a line interval at infinity.
> So in projective space the projection is again non-empty. And again a
> conic section, now a degenerate ellipse.)

Almost right. 

Let L be the line at infinity of the plane P (or P').
The projection of C always lies in L. But:

 -- the projection of C is a (closed) interval in L only
if the projection center X lies outside the circle C in plane P'.

 -- the projection of C is the whole line L at infinity if the projection
center X lies *inside or on* the circle C in plane P'.

Geometers like to avoid this sort of hair splitting by discussing 
generic cases only.

Whether programmers can afford to do likewise is a good question.

Cheers

Laurent S.



From - Sun Apr 24 19:29:17 2005
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Hi Laurence F., and Luiz

Laurence wrote: [Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:40:11 +0200 (MEST)]

 > On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, L. Nobre G. wrote: 
 >
 >> >From the experimental physicist point of view the perspective projection
 >> of a circle on a plane is "allways" an ellipse.
 >> But
 >> the projection of the center of the circle is "not" the center of the
 >> ellipse.
 >
 >How can this be reconciled with what Laurent S. and Peter have written?
 >Again, in words of one syllable, if possible, please.

No way! 

Now a polysyllabic clarification.  Hyperbolic images are common
visible and computable.  Hundreds of millions of automobilists
including most physicists see such hyperbolas on the road when using
their high beam headlights at night. Hundreds of millions of
citizens see such hyperbolas on the wall of a room at night above a
round lampshade.

But the statement about centers is OK.

Cheers

Laurent S.


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Hi Laurence F. 

You wrote:

 > So is a perspective projection of a conic section always a conic
 > section?

I don't know now how the greeks liked to prove this this.  But an
algebraic proof valid in all dimensions is essentially this:

Lemma.  If A:R^n --> R^n is a non-degenerate R-linear map of vector
spaces and q:R^n --> R is a homogeneous quadratic function, then
the composition qA: :R^n --> R is a homogeneous quadratic function.

Maybe someone will elaborate...

Cheers

Laurent S.



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Je veux me désisncrire et ça ne marche pas quand j'envoie un mais avec 
unsubscribe et mon email à sympa@ens.fr

Nicolas.

-- 
    Powered           .~.
    by Linux          /V\
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From - Sun Apr 24 22:08:42 2005
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From: "Laurence Finston" <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0504241700430.14635-100000@lince.cii.fc.ul.pt>
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:08:20 +0200
Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Fwd: Re: button-hole problem
To: "L. Nobre G."  <nobre@lince.cii.fc.ul.pt>
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> Take, for example, two parallel triangles.
> 
>                   A    B
>                   /\  /\
>                  /  \/  \
>                 /   /\   \
>                /  C/__\___\D
>               /________\
>              E          F
> 
> If AEF is in front of BCD, then
> 
>                   A    B
>                   /\  /\
>                  /  \/g \
>                 /    \   \
>                /      \h__\D
>               /________\
>              E          F
> 
> the plan containing A, F and Focus::position has cut BCD in two parts.
> Cgh is occluded and BghD is not.

Thanks for the explanation.  The case I'm having difficulty with is where the
triangles lie in a plane parallel to the x-z plane, the line Focus::position
-- Focus::direction also lies in a plane parallel to the x-z plane, and the
triangles as seen from above look something like this, but rotated about  plus
or minus 75°:

______
|           /|
|          / | 
|         /  |
|  A   /   |
|      / B |
|     /      |
|    /       |
I   /        |      
|  /         |
|/_____|

I've implemented routines for "self-decomposition" of polygons, but I'm afraid
that no matter how many pieces I break them into, simply sorting by their
max-z, min-z, or mean-z values will fail for some of them.  I may try
projecting a ray from Focus::position through each of the vertices and testing
the distance from Focus::position to the first intersection point of each of
the polygons.  I think this will work for convex polygons.
I don't know what to do about conic sections yet.

Thanks.

Laurence

From - Sun Apr 24 22:28:07 2005
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Subject: Re: button-hole problem
To: Larry Siebenmann  <laurent@math.toronto.edu>
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Larry Siebenmann wrote:

> Geometers like to avoid this sort of hair splitting by discussing 
> generic cases only.
> 
> Whether programmers can afford to do likewise is a good question.

They cannot.   I have occasionally met with an attitude among mathematicians
and physicists, that once they'd proven that a solution existed, they had
solved the problem, upon which they lost interest.  From my point of view,
that's just the beginning.  I have almost never implemented any non-trivial
feature in any program without having to revise my theory.   Sometimes, I've
even had to revise my views about what was trivial and what wasn't.   

Incidentally, the balance between the theoretical and the practical is one of
the things I admire most about Knuth's work.

Laurence

From - Sun Apr 24 22:39:52 2005
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From: "Laurence Finston" <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
In-Reply-To: <200504241730.j3OHUe794880@coxeter.math.toronto.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:39:45 +0200
Subject: Re: button-hole problem
To: Larry Siebenmann  <laurent@math.toronto.edu>
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> Minor disagreement about coordinatization 
> for eye or camera or screen display:
> 
> My choice of the film plane F as R x R x {m}, and the projection
> center always at the origin (0,0,0) seems more convenient since
> zooming is *less awkward* than when you choose the center at
> (0,0,-m).

In "my" method (actually, it's from one of the books I've used, probably Huw
Jones, _Computer Graphics Through Key Mathematics_, or perhaps from a book by
Stephen Harrington, whose title I've forgotten), 
the plane of projection is transformed to the x-y plane, so I can just write
the x and y values of the "projective coordinates" (as I call them) to the
MetaPost output.

> 
> Recall that m > 0 is my zoom factor.

This is true of "my" method as well.  

I'm not arguing with you.  I have no particular emotional attachment to the
method I use.  If it turns out to be advantageous to change it, I'd be quite
happy to do so.  I don't think it would be too difficult.  If not, I might as
well leave it as it is.

> PS.  When you quote from another list please
> identify the speaker and date.

Okay.

Thanks.

Laurence

From - Sun Apr 24 22:48:43 2005
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From: "Laurence Finston" <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
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Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:48:35 +0200
Subject: Re: button-hole problem
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>  > So is a perspective projection of a conic section always a conic
>  > section?
> 
> I don't know now how the greeks liked to prove this this.  But an
> algebraic proof valid in all dimensions is essentially this:
> 
> Lemma.  If A:R^n --> R^n is a non-degenerate R-linear map of vector
> spaces and q:R^n --> R is a homogeneous quadratic function, then
> the composition qA: :R^n --> R is a homogeneous quadratic function.
> 
> Maybe someone will elaborate...

I hope so, because I don't understand it.
Actually, I have a vague idea about vector spaces and maps (if that's the
English term for _Abbildungen_).  Did the Greeks invent (or discover, if you
prefer) projective geometry?  I thought it was either Descartes, or followed 
Descartes.  Doesn't one need a coordinate system for projections?

Thanks.

Laurence

From - Mon Apr 25 17:27:16 2005
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From: Peter Vanroose <peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk>
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--- Larry Siebenmann <laurent@math.toronto.edu> wrote:
> > in that case the projection is a line interval at infinity.
> 
> Almost right. 
> ...
>  -- the projection of C is the whole line L at infinity if the
> projection center X lies *inside or on* the circle C in plane P'.

Agreed.

--      Peter.

From - Mon Apr 25 17:47:25 2005
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From: Peter Vanroose <peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk>
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> So is a perspective projection of a conic section always a conic
> section?

Yes.
Otherwise stated, "being a conic section" is a projective invariant.

This means: projecting a circle, ellipse, hyperbola, or parabola,
no matter how, always gives either a circle or an ellipse or a
hyperbola or a parabola.

(Well, I could have dropped "circle" since cicles are ellipses.)

On the other hand, the *centre* of a circle or an ellipse is *not* a
projective invariant (it's an affine invariant), so the centre is not
necessarily projected onto the centre of the projection.

Take again my example with the vertical circle on the horizontal
projection plane.

Let's have it more concrete: the horizontal projection plane is the
plane Z=0, the circle lies in the plane X=0, with centre (0,0,2) and
radius 2 (so it touches the projection plane in (0,0,0)), and the eye
point is (-3,0,5).

The projection is an ellipse [guaranteed !]
with main axis Y=Z=0 [since it's a symmetry axis of the projection],
with top points (0,0,0) and (12,0,0) [= projection of (0,0,4)],
so the centre is (6,0,0),
but the projection of the circle's centre (0,0,2) is the point (2,0,0):
still on the main axis, but not in the middle.

Projections don't preserve distances nor distance fractions, so they in
general don't preserve "middle of a line segment", so in particular
they don't preserve "centre of an ellipse".


--      Peter.

From - Mon Apr 25 21:17:56 2005
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From: "Laurence Finston" <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
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Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:17:34 +0200
Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem
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Peter Vanroose wrote:

> > So is a perspective projection of a conic section always a conic
> > section?
> 
> Yes.
> Otherwise stated, "being a conic section" is a projective invariant.

Thank you.  This is very handy and makes me think that it would definitely be
worthwhile to pursue this tack.  Am I right in assuming that "projectively
invariant" implies that this characteristic of conic sections is invariant for
any projection whatsoever, such as projection onto a sphere or a cylinder?  It
seems to me that it ought to be possible to construct a transformation for
which this condition would not hold.  If this is true, does it imply that not
all transformations are projections?  If this is so, are projections a subset
of transformations?  Or am I comparing apples and oranges?  Please excuse me
if these are naive questions.
 
> On the other hand, the *centre* of a circle or an ellipse is *not* a
> projective invariant (it's an affine invariant), so the centre is not
> necessarily projected onto the centre of the projection.

[...]

> Projections don't preserve distances nor distance fractions, so they in
> general don't preserve "middle of a line segment", so in particular
> they don't preserve "centre of an ellipse".

I don't consider these to be problems.  I may not need the centers of the
projections, and previous remarks in this discussion have indicated that it's
possible to find the centers, foci, etc., if needed.

However, I'm still a bit at sea about the problem of finding equations
(implicit and/or parametric) for the projections and finding the intersections
of conic sections.  I realize it's up to me to learn this material, I'm just
finding it extremely difficult.  It seems like a very long road.  

Thank you very much for your help.

Laurence


From - Tue Apr 26 08:39:58 2005
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From: Peter Vanroose <peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org
Subject: Re: button-hole problem
To: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org
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>  Am I right in assuming that "projectively invariant" implies
> that this characteristic of conic sections is invariant for any
> projection whatsoever, such as projection onto a sphere or a
cylinder?

No.  By "projection" I mean "projection of planar objects onto a
plane".

> It seems to me that it ought to be possible to construct a
> transformation for which this condition would not hold.

Yes, that's right.

> If this is true, does it imply that not all transformations are
> projections?  If this is so, are projections a subset
> of transformations?

Certainly. But projections are the most general transformations that
are guaranteed to transform straight lines into straight lines.



--	Peter.

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Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem
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At 02:17 PM 4/25/2005, you wrote:
>However, I'm still a bit at sea about the problem of finding equations
>(implicit and/or parametric) for the projections

You have not made it clear what the input data is (i.e., how a particular
conic section is to be described). Perhaps you can get something out of the 
following:

A conic section is a plane figure, so I will assume you have such figure
in some plane P_0. Now you want to project it through a focal point F onto
another plane P_1. One can rotate, translate and scale the 3d coordinates
so that the initial plane P_0 is taken to the xy-plane and the focal point F
is taken to (0,0,1). This transforms the conic section in P_0 to one in the
xy-plane with some formula Q(x,y) = 0, where Q is quadratic function in x
and y. (And the target plane P_1 has been transformed to some new plane P_2.)

Projection involves taking all possible lines containing (0,0,1) that pass
through points of the conic section and finding where they intersect the
transformed target plane P_2. The set of all such lines form a surface of
which the equation is
   (1-z)^2 Q(x/(1-z), y/(1-z)) = 0.
This is a quardatic function in x, y and z. If Q(x,y) can be explicitly
found, so can this surface. The projected conic section is the intesection
of this surface with P_2. This could be found using the equation for P_2
to replace one of the variables in the above surface equation. Or one could
transform coordinates again so that P_2 coincides with the xy-plane and
the above surface formula becomes some new formula R(x,y,z) = 0. The new
conic section has equation R(x,y,0) = 0. Now reverse all previous
transformations to get the new conic.

For example, suppose the original focus is already (0,0,1) and the initial
plane P_0 is the xy-plane. Suppose the conic is the circle center at (1,0)
with radius 1:
   x^2 - 2x + y^2 = 0
Suppose we want to project this to the plane P_1 which is perpendicular to
the x-axis at x=2. The projection surface is then
   x^2 - 2x(1 - z) + y^2 = 0
We can get the intersection of this surface with P_1 by putting using the
equation of P_1 directly, I.e., put x=2 in the equation of the above surface
to get
   4 - 4(1 - z) + y^2 = 0
i.e.,
    z = -y^2/4.
This (along with the equation of the plane x=2) specifies the projected
conic section. Notice that this projection of a circle is a parabola.

>and finding the intersections
>of conic sections.

I guess here you mean solving two simultaneous equations, each of which is
a quadratic in x and y. I'm sure there are well know numerical recipes for
that sort of thing. I don't believe there are any directly usable formulas
for the intersection points.


Dan


Daniel H. Luecking
Department of Mathematical Sciences
University of Arkansas
"Be kind. Every person you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Anon.


From - Tue Apr 26 23:41:26 2005
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From: "Laurence Finston" <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
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Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem
To: Dan Luecking  <luecking@uark.edu>
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From: Dan Luecking <luecking@uark.edu> 

-------------------
> At 02:17 PM 4/25/2005, you wrote:
> >However, I'm still a bit at sea about the problem of finding equations
> >(implicit and/or parametric) for the projections
> 
> You have not made it clear what the input data is (i.e., how a particular
> conic section is to be described). 

In order to explain this, I must explain a little about the C++ implementation
of the GNU 3DLDF interpreter.  Most data types in the 3DLDF language
correspond to classes in the C++ code, e.g., `point' corresponds to `class
Point', `path' to `class Path', etc.  `class Ellipse' is derived from `class
Path', so an `ellipse' is a kind of `path'.  `Paths' contain a
`vector<Point*>' and a `vector<string>' for the connectors.  The only
connectors that currently make sense in 3DLDF are `..', `...', `--', and
`---'.  It doesn't make sense to implement `tension' until I've made more
progress on `class Nurb'.  In addition to the vectors, `Ellipses' contain the
following data members:

Point focus0
Point focus1
real linear_eccentricity
real numerical_eccentricity
real axis_h
real axis_v

Declarations in 3DLDF are analogous to those in Metafont, so the result of the
declaration

ellipse e;

is an "unknown ellipse".  `ellipses' can be "made known" by assigning from
`unit_ellipse', which is a predefined `ellipse variable', or by using a `set'
command, of which this is the syntax:

set_command: SET ellipse_variable with_center_optional with_axis_h_optional
with_axis_v_optional with_point_count_optional with_normal_optional

So if I set `e' as follows:

set e with_point_count 32;

it will have its center at the origin, its horizontal and vertical axes will
both be 1.0, it will have 32 points, and it's normal will be (0, 1, 0).  It's
foci, linear eccentricity and numerical eccentricity will be calculated by the
function
`Ellipse::set()', which is called in the action for this parser rule.

The `Ellipse' constructors and setting functions use the parametric equation
for an ellipse to find the desired numbered of points in the x-z plane, using
the origin as the center.  Subsequently, the `Ellipse', i.e., the center,
foci, and the points representing the perimeter, are rotated about the x, y,
and z-axes, in that order, by the amounts specified by `real' arguments to the
function, if any of them is non-null.  Unlike the `set_command', the `Ellipse'
constructors and setting functions do not take a `Point' argument for a normal
vector yet, so this information must be extracted from the normal `Point' used
in the `set' rule, if any.

Incidentally, I use the explicit equation (correct term?) for the ellipse for
finding the intersection of an ellipse with a line, i.e.,
$x^2/a^2 + y^2/b^2 = 1$ where $a$ is half the horizontal axis
and $b$ is half the vertical axis, so one representation doesn't seem to be
enough for all purposes.

Each of the `Points' pointed to by a pointer on the `vector<Point*>
Path::points'
has its own `transform' data element, of type `class Transform'.  I've been
thinking about changing this, but I think it would be very handy to be able to
transform the individual `Points' on `ellipses', `circles', `polygons', etc.,
rather than only being able to transform the whole object at once.  I may
replace `Transform Point::transform' with `Transform* Point::transform', and
only allocate memory for a `Transform' when needed, but making this change
will require 
great care.

> Perhaps you can get something out of the 
> following:

It's very helpful, thank you very much.

> 
> >and finding the intersections
> >of conic sections.
> 
> I guess here you mean solving two simultaneous equations, each of which is
> a quadratic in x and y. 

Yes.

> I'm sure there are well know numerical recipes for
> that sort of thing. I don't believe there are any directly usable formulas
> for the intersection points.

I was afraid of that.  I currently use binary search to find the intersections
of two `Ellipses', but it's a bit slow.  I've implemented an algebraic
solution for two `Circles', since this is so easy.  Martijn van Manen has
given me some material about finding the intersections of two ellipes
algebraically, but he uses some mathematical concepts that I don't understand.
 I'm working on it.

Thanks again, as always, for your help.

Laurence


From - Wed Apr 27 11:16:06 2005
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Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:16:01 +0200 (CEST)
From: Peter Vanroose <peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org
Subject: Re: button-hole problem
To: Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org
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 --- Laurence Finston <lfinsto1@gwdg.de> wrote: 
>  Martijn van Manen has given me some material about finding the
> intersections of two ellipes algebraically, but he uses some
> mathematical concepts that I don't understand.

Let me try to explain these concepts in a few words:

An ellipse (or actually any conic section) in the XY plane has an
equation Q(x,y)=0 where Q is a quadratic expression in x and y.

Suppose the two ellipses are given by the equations Q1(x,y)=0 and
Q2(x,y)=0.

Any linear combination of Q1 and Q2 is still quadratic, hence
represents an (other) conic section.
For example: Q3(x,y) := 3 * Q1(x,y) - 7 * Q2(x,y) = 0.

Interestingly, any linear combination of Q1 and Q2 also passes through
the four intersection points of Q1=0 and Q2=0.
So, in order to find those intersection points, one may as well try to
intersect any two linear combinations of Q1 and Q2.

Now from those linear combinations Q3:=k*Q1+l*Q2, there are three
choices for (k,l) such that Q3 is degenerate.
This means that Q3(x,y) can be written as the product of two linear
factors:
Q3(x,y) = (a*x+b*y+c)*(d*x+e*y+f) for some numbers a,b,c,d,e,f.

Geometrically, this means that Q3=0 is actually "two straight lines",
hence the term "degenerate".

Now the intersection problem reduces to find two of those three
degenerate conic sections amongst k*Q1+l*Q2=0.
Fortunately, there is an algebraic expression for verifying that a
quadratic equation is the product of two linear factors (similar to the
discriminant formula for solving quadratic equations in one unknown).
Hence two pairs of numbers (k1,l1) and (k2,l2) can be found relatively
easily, which gives us two degenerate conic sections Q3:=k1*Q1+l1*Q2
and Q4:=k2*Q1+l2*Q2.

Suppose Q3=L1*L2 and Q4=L3*L4, where L1,L2,L3,L4 are linear (i.e., L1=0
is a straight line etc.)
The intersection of Q1 and Q2 equals the intersection of Q3 and Q4,
which are the four points L1^L3, L1^L4, L2^L3 and L2^L4, where "^"
stands for the intersection point of the two lines. Intersecting lines
is of course easy.

Note that the numbers k and l might be complex numbers. This is e.g.
the case when intersecting two circles. B.t.w., all circles pass
through the two points (at infinity) with direction x=1,y=j and
x=1,y=-j. Hence, when intersecting two circles, one of the component
lines L1 will be the line at infinity, and there will be at most two
"real" intersection points.



--	Peter.

From - Wed Apr 27 11:22:26 2005
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From: Peter Vanroose <peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: button-hole problem
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> Shearing (an affine transformation) can make an ellipse
non-elliptical

No, this is impossible.  A sheared ellipse is always an ellipse.



--	Peter.

From - Thu Apr 28 18:00:57 2005
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To: metapost@tug.org, ntg-context@ntg.nl, metafont@ens.fr,
        tex-implementors@tug.org
Subject: MetaPost 0.9 announcement
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The MetaPost team is happy to announce a new release of MetaPost:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
MetaPost 0.9
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The sources and a win32 package can be downloaded immediately from

   http://sarovar.org/projects/metapost/

The source package should compile normally on all systems that are
capable of compiling a modern web2c-based TeX distribution.

The win32 package is intended for fptex or a similar web2c-based
installation, and has been tested only with TeXLive 2003. These
executables will *not* work for miktex, sorry.

Of course, we welcome any comments (either good or bad) that you may
have. Simply replying to this message is fine, but see the bottom of
this message for a more formal way to report bugs and feature requests.

For those of you who have noted the large gap between 0.641 and 0.9:
We have deliberately chosen to step over some minor version numbers,
such that the first major release by the current team (this release
is planned for the autumn of 2005) can become version 1.0 without
causing additional confusion.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
What is new in version 0.9:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. There is a new internal quantity called mpversion that reports the
    current metapost version, and the version information is also written
    to the PostScript file.
2. The LaTeX sources of the mpman, mpintro, and mpgraph manuals have
    become part of the distribution package.
3. TEX.mp now has TeX format support through a pair of macros called
    TEXPRE() and TEXPOST(). This llows you to process the contents of
    the TEX() macro with, for example, LaTeX (instead of plain TeX).
    An example is given in the manual.
4. metapost now writes a %%HiReSBoundingBox comment
5. The EPS output no longer contains actual spaces within PostScript
    strings as for example output by label("a space"), but their
    octal escape (\040) instead.
6. The EPS output now also has a %%BeginProlog DSC comment
    as well as %%EndProlog
7. The comments in the Web source have been changed to point out
    that on modern machines, acquiring the random seed has actually
    become a system-dependant operation (a granularity of whole seconds
    is not small enough on new machines).
8. The 'newer' command now accepts more than 2 arguments, testing
    each of the files in turn.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bugfixes in version 0.9:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Documentation improvements: all known errata and typos have been
    removed, better explanations of e.g. dash patterns and dotlabel have
    been provided, and a number of omissions has been rectified.
2. The BoundingBox was not computed correctly when a filldraw command
    with a noticeable pen size was used at the edge of the picture.
3. Paths starting with degenerate constructions like (0,0)--(0,0)--(0,0)
    could overflow memory.
4. The PostScript output could accidentally contain 8-bit characters
    within PostScript strings in previous versions because a test was
    shared between terminal printing and PostScript printing.
5. A bug has been found in the assignment of serial numbers to
    independant variables in metafont 2.71828. This bug affected MP as
    well, and the same patch has been applied.
6. The turningnumber was sometimes wrong in unexpected ways. The new
    implementation is still sometimes wrong (when there are strange path
    segments involved), but in a much more predictable way: the new code
    always draws straight lines between the actual points, and calculates
    the turningnumber based on that path instead of the actual path. The
    effect is that cusps and loops within segments are now completely
    ignored. A more thorough fix of turningnumber is planned for the
    next release.
7. There was an 'off by one' error in dvitomp wrt. the interpretation
    of virtual fonts.
8. mpto uses a new TeX macro for the generation of labels, making it
    more robust wrt. strange user code within the actual label text.
9. A missing colon in boxes.mp has been added
10. A missing save in mfplain.mp has been added
11. The generisize in boxes.mp has been fixed so that it now accepts
    [[ as a valid variable name


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Legal notice / license / bug reports
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MetaPost is a system for producing graphics developed by John Hobby
at AT&T, based on Donald Knuth's Metafont.  The MetaPost home page
is http://tug.org/metapost.

MetaPost and related programs are in the public domain.

The MetaPost development project is currently hosted at Sarovar,
http://www.sarovar.org/projects/metapost; please report bugs and
request enhancements through there if possible. Alternatively, you
can reach us through the <metapost@tug.org> mailing list as well.
(Please do not send bug reports or feature requests directly to
Dr. Hobby any more)


Have fun!

Taco Hoekwater, for the MetaPost team, April 28, 2005



From - Thu Apr 28 23:08:13 2005
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Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:08:03 +0200
From: Denis Roegel <Denis.Roegel@loria.fr>
To: metafont@ens.fr
Cc: Denis Roegel <Denis.Roegel@loria.fr>
Subject: searching a metapost package
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Hi,

a few months ago, someone made a metapost package which had
an interesting key/value option mechanism, but I can't
remember which package it was. Could someone help me
locate this package, maybe its author if he/she is reading this?

Sorry for this very vague question...

Thanks,

Denis

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Subject: Re: button-hole problem
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From: "Laurence Finston" <lfinsto1@gwdg.de>
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Peter Vanroose wrote:

> Let me try to explain these concepts in a few words:

[...]

Thank you for your very clear explanation.  It was very interesting, and I
feel I'm closer to being able to implement a solution.  There are still a few
tricky bits I don't understand, but you've done everything short of presenting
me finished code on a silver platter.

I'm currently working on rewriting the manual, so it will be awhile before I
start working on conic sections.  

Many thanks to all of you who have answered my questions.  Needless to say, if
anyone has anything more to say on the subject, I would be very interested to
hear it.

Laurence


From - Fri Apr 29 08:16:02 2005
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From: Brian Elmegaard <be@mek.dtu.dk>
Subject:  Re: searching a metapost package
Date:  29 Apr 2005 08:06:32 +0200
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My guess is that you are looking for latexmp?

-- 
Brian (remove the sport for mail)
http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html


