From - Tue Apr 19 15:31:11 2005 Return-Path: Received: from polimi.it (mail.polimi.it [131.175.12.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3JDUcAn040153 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:30:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pop2.mate.polimi.it (ipmma27.mate.polimi.it [131.175.23.27]) by polimi.it (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j3JD7jAg006817 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:07:46 +0200 Received: from vianello.mate.polimi.it (mauvia.mate.polimi.it [131.175.23.216]) by pop2.mate.polimi.it (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3JD86hZ027838 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:08:10 +0200 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:05:20 +0200 To: metafont@ens.fr From: Maurizio Vianello Subject: Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-PMX-Version: 4.7.1.128075, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.3.1, Antispam-Data: 2005.4.19.5 X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIII, Probability=7%, Report='__ANY_QUALCOMM_MUA 0, __CT 0, __CTYPE_CHARSET_QUOTED 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __HAS_X_MAILER 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __SANE_MSGID 0' X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:30:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 I'm using Metapost for drawing figures. I use LatexMP for labels. I have a sytem which works, normally. Let'say I write a file mypic.mp which goes like this: %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% input latexmp; setupLaTeXMP(packages="lucidabr"); prologues:=2; beginfig(1); label(textext("$A(1)$"), (0,0)); endfig; end %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% (I have the complete set of Lucida fonts purchased from Y&Y on my PC, and in normal tex\latex documents all is OK). I can see the PS output (mypic.1) through GV. I can include the output into a latex file and view/print/convert into pdf as I wish, after running latex or pdflatex My problem is: I am not able to transform mypic.1 into mypic.pdf (I want just the picture, not a whole page with the picture in it) I tried with epstopdf but I get a pdf file where the parenthesis around 1 are missing (no problem with drawings per se): I see "A", I see "1", but no parenthesis around it. For other eps files generated by other applications epstopdf works fine...and it works for metapost pictures with no labels, or for metapost pictures with labels using the default fonts. I was not able to solve the problem by fiddling around with packages, prologues (0,1,2), by adding a verbatimtex part of the file to load encondings etc. I saw that this is a known problem. After a search I made, I found out that someone suggested to use mps2eps and then epstopdf . Is this right? Is there around an executable for Win2K of this program? I tried to compile the perl version on my pc (I do not have C) but that gave me some errors and I have almost no knowledge of perl. Is there a simpler alternative? Thanks to all, Maurizio From - Tue Apr 19 18:17:12 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3JGH7Te008200 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:17:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DNvPH-0005vf-1G; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:16:59 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3JGGwT0000347134; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:16:58 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:16:58 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Maurizio Vianello cc: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:17:07 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Maurizio Vianello wrote: > Is there a simpler alternative? I think the simplest way to do what you want is the following: 1. Put your figure in an \hbox surrounded by a \vbox. 2. Use the \wd and \ht of the \vbox to set \vsize and \hsize You can use \advance to leave a little room. Alternatively, you can use \vskip, \hskip, \vfil, and/or \hfil within the boxes. 3. Set \voffset and \hoffset appropriately. 4. Use a "papersize" \special. 5. Run TeX, or LaTeX, if you prefer. 6. Run dvips. You should now have a structured PostScript file with your illustration and it should be of the right size. 7. Run ps2pdf to get your PDF file. If you have multiple illustrations, you can call dvips with the -i and -S options to have it output separate structured PostScript files. There are other ways of doing this; this is the one I use. It has the advantage of not using any exotic packages. It can also be automated easily. I use an Emacs-Lisp function to do it, but a shell script would do as well. If you want to try this, and my explanations are not sufficient, I'll be happy to send you an example (though not with Lucida and LaTeX). Laurence Finston http://www.gnu.org/software/3dldf/LDF.html From - Wed Apr 20 03:01:32 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3K117ca068026 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 03:01:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3K10t119926; Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:00:55 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:00:55 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504200100.j3K10t119926@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: laurent@math.toronto.edu, mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 03:01:09 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi all, Maurizio Vianello has trouble using Lucida labels in MP figures. Here's a relevant quip from Taco Hoekwater on the metapost@tug.org list (Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:01:01 +0100): > MP doesn't > even produce valid EPS files at the moment. Font inclusion > [in MP] needs fixing first, and that is quite an undertaking. Join the metapost@tug.org if you have time to work on improving font handling by MP. One easy solution that is reliable today:- Overlay labels on fontless ".eps" output of MP using TeX -- which has reliable font handling. This involves: (a) a TeX macro package for labeling like "labelfig.tex" on CTAN. (b) an ".eps" integration package such as "boxedeps.tex" on CTAN. (c) A dvi-to-ps converter like "dvips". (d) A ps-to-pdf converter like Acrobat Distiller or "ps2pdf" (part of GS). There are variants of (b) and (c) for "pdftex" in place of "TeX" and the pdftex@tug.org list will tell you about them. Also for "dvipdf" in place of "dvips"; see CTAN. Cheers Laurent S. From - Wed Apr 20 08:42:27 2005 Return-Path: Received: from post-23.mail.nl.demon.net (post-23.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.193]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3K6gONg060713 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:42:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boo.demon.nl ([82.161.175.147]:34766 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by post-23.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DO8uj-000KqV-Oo; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 06:42:21 +0000 Message-ID: <4265F944.9080807@elvenkind.com> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:40:04 +0200 From: Taco Hoekwater User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050215) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maurizio Vianello CC: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:42:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Maurizio Vianello wrote: > I am not able to transform mypic.1 into mypic.pdf (I want just the > picture, not a whole page with the picture in it) Using mptopdf is easiest solution: 1. run 'mpost mypic' (creates mypic.XXX) 2. run 'mptopdf mypic' (converts to mypic-XXX.pdf) mptopdf is a perl script + tex format from Hans Hagen, and it is included in most TeX distributions as part of the ConTeXt package. If you do not have mptopdf installed, you can download it (or the full ConTeXt package) from Hans Hagen's website: http://www.pragma-ade.com/context/current/cont-mpd.zip Greetings, Taco From - Wed Apr 20 13:52:10 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KBq6iY081963 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:52:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DODkU-0004jT-3q; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:52:06 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3KBq5V0000376760; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:52:05 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:52:05 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Maurizio Vianello cc: liste metafont Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:52:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Maurizio Vianello wrote: > Thanks. My pleasure. > I understand that you are proposing the cleanest way to do what I > need. I think it's one clean way of doing it. > I think that something like this would need to be automated in order > to be used. Actually, if you're not doing a lot of files at once, you can just use the same TeX file. Another possibility is to repeat the code in a single TeX file as many times as you need. I only recently discovered the `-i' and `-S' options to `dvips' which make it possible to generate separate PostScript files from a single dvi file. One advantage to automating the process is that it makes it possible to rename the eps files. I've tried to use `\count' registers for the numerical suffixes within a loop in TeX, but I couldn't get it to work. Therefore, I find it more convenient to rename the EPS files output by MetaPost when I want to do this, e.g., `a.1' to `a_1.eps'. For some reason, I could get looping to work when the names had this form. I don't know what the problem is. However, if you use an Emacs-Lisp function or a shell script to generate your TeX code, you could just let it do the looping and not bother changing the names. > I'll try that out. Someone suggested to use mptopdf, a program > from the people of "context " and it seems to work well, too, > even if, as > you say, that solution would depend on some fancy external program. There's usually not just one way of doing something. If you want to try it my way and have any questions, please feel free to ask. Laurence From - Wed Apr 20 14:14:00 2005 Return-Path: Received: from glenfiddich.elvenkind.com (elvenknd.xs4all.nl [213.84.171.68]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KCDv8Y091399 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:13:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by glenfiddich.elvenkind.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D60F1EF58; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:15:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from glenfiddich.elvenkind.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (glenfiddich.elvenkind.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32260-05; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:15:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.10.0.6] (glenlivet.elvenkind.com [10.10.0.6]) by glenfiddich.elvenkind.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C737911D78; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:15:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42664783.1090609@elvenkind.com> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:13:55 +0200 From: Taco Hoekwater User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laurence Finston Cc: Maurizio Vianello , liste metafont Subject: OT: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at elvenkind.net X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:13:57 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi Maurizio & Laurence, >>I'll try that out. Someone suggested to use mptopdf, a program >>from the people of "context " and it seems to work well, too, >>even if, as >>you say, that solution would depend on some fancy external program. Thankgod we all know that emacs is not even remotely like a fancy external program :-) Taco From - Wed Apr 20 16:49:42 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KEnbsM057133 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:49:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOGWG-00074P-Rj; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:49:37 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3KEna40000381061; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:49:36 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:49:36 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Maurizio Vianello cc: liste metafont Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="352865414-777395133-1114008576=:379030" X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:49:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --352865414-777395133-1114008576=:379030 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Maurizio, After my last posting I tried to put together an example, but I ran into a couple of difficulties. I have solved them now, up to a point, and have attached the example. In my family, we call this "a fifteen minute job". The difficulties involved `dvips'. It didn't accept my papersize special and insisted on using the default. I've had this problem before, but not always. I don't understand why I have it sometimes and sometimes not. Perhaps I've accidentally chosen an acceptable papersize at times. Another problem is that it sometimes rotates the image 90%, which I find extremely annoying. I don't think it ought to be doing this. At any rate, I've decided not to use the papersize special anymore. The example includes the file `crop_0.tex'. I have used the command `\epsfverbosetrue' so that the dimensions of the image `3DLDFmp.1' are output to the terminal. I use DIN A4 as my paper size, setting `\vsize' and `\hsize' appropriately. I advance `\voffset' and `\hoffset' by -1in, in order to get rid of the default margins. I then center the image on the page. I then run `dvips' which produces a structured PostScript file containing one page in DIN A4 format with the image centered. In order to cut it down to the proper size, I use the `mogrify' program belonging to the `ImageMagick' package: `http://www.imagemagick.org/script/index.php'. I use the `shave' option to remove space from the top, bottom, and sides of the image: `mogrify -shave 182.55456936491902x340.99049537893075 crop_0.ps'. I've included a second PostScript file where I've called `mogrify -shave 132.55456936491902x290.99049537893075 crop_0.ps' instead, to leave a bit of space around the image. The files are called `ttest.ps' and `ttest_0.ps'. The `shave' option to `mogrify' expects its arguments to be in units of pixels, so these need to be calculated. I've included the calculation in `crop_0.tex'. It seems to work to use the `crop' option, too. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be possible to `shave' different amounts on the left and right sides, or on the top and bottom. There seem to be options for adding space, and it's possible to use `undraw' in MetaPost, so it should be possible to position the image precisely. I am not an expert in the use of ImageMagick. In order to automate this procedure, it would be necessary to write the output produced by `\epsfverbosetrue' to a file, read it out again, and perform the calculations for finding the arguments to `mogrify'. I'll probably work on this soon, since I need to create PNG files of the correct size from my MetaPost images. I've included my old Emacs-Lisp code in the file `cnepspng.el'. I will need to change it to account for what I've written above. There seems to be something wrong with `convert-eps-loop'. The debugger is called if I try to use it. It used to work, so I don't know what happened. If anyone has trouble opening the compressed archive file (gzipped tar file), I've put all the files at: `http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/3dldf/3dldf/ Group/CWEB/EXAMPLES/CROPPING/'. 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Received: from glenfiddich.elvenkind.com (elvenknd.xs4all.nl [213.84.171.68]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KFDGVi066033 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:13:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by glenfiddich.elvenkind.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BEC91EF54; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:14:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from glenfiddich.elvenkind.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (glenfiddich.elvenkind.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00991-10; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:14:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.10.0.6] (glenlivet.elvenkind.com [10.10.0.6]) by glenfiddich.elvenkind.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACAB511D78; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:14:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4266718A.9060701@elvenkind.com> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:13:14 +0200 From: Taco Hoekwater User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laurence Finston Cc: Maurizio Vianello , liste metafont Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at elvenkind.net X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:13:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi, I don't claim to really understand what you are doing, but would it perhaps be possible to call 'dvips -E' instead of manually calculating the needed cropping and using mogrify? Taco Laurence Finston wrote: > Hello Maurizio, > > After my last posting I tried to put together an example, but I ran > into a couple of difficulties. I have solved them now, up to a > point, and have attached the example. In my family, we call this > "a fifteen minute job". > > The difficulties involved `dvips'. It didn't accept my papersize From - Wed Apr 20 18:47:31 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KGlO4D000695 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:47:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3KGlGs47594; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:47:16 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:47:16 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504201647.j3KGlGs47594@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: laurent@math.toronto.edu, lfinsto1@gwdg.de, mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:47:25 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi Laurence F. It seems to me that your reply does not address the issue of robust font integration. But rather the issue of getting a well-framed "eps" file. Inversely, my reply addressed the font issue and neglected the well well-framed and structured "eps" issue. Together we have hopefully indicated all Maurizio needs. Incidentally, I favor using TeX label overlays rather than the MP label mechanism because they apply uniformly to all sorts of graphics from all sorts of sources. I use more bitmapped graphics than vectorial. Furthermore, the font storage for TeX label overlays is optimally efficient; it is often attrocious when labels are included in autonomous figure files. Cheers Laurent S. PS. Thanks for the specifics on the dvips "papersize" \special and the -i option. PPS. The issue of well-framed and well-structured "eps" files can be otherwise resolved by opening (fontless) MP output files into Adobe Illustrator and resaving in a suitable format (".pdf" included!!). Last time I checked, this workaround failed on MP labels. From - Wed Apr 20 20:49:22 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KInGp2037063 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:49:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3KIn3Z210234; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:49:03 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:49:03 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504201849.j3KIn3Z210234@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: laurent@math.toronto.edu, lfinsto1@gwdg.de, mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:49:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.2 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, MISSING_SUBJECT,UPPERCASE_25_50 autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels Hi Laurence F. and all, I just wrote: > PPS. The issue of well-framed and well-structured "eps" > files can be otherwise resolved by opening (fontless) MP > output files into Adobe Illustrator and resaving in a > suitable format (".pdf" included!!). Last time I > checked, this workaround failed on MP labels. This is still true under classic PPC MacOS. I have just tested this with Laurence F.'s MP file called "3DLFmp.1". It can be parsed neither by Adobe Acrobat Distiller nor by Adobe Illustrator until I remove the label and font material to obtain "3DLFmp.1A". Then "3DLFmp.1A" is accepted by both with good vectorial ".pdf" output. John Hobby's font handling seems unacceptable to Adobe (?). Curious fact:- "3DLFmp.1A" is not interpreted by Adobe Acrobat Distiller as a 'well framed' eps file. On the other hand, output files of MP with the setting prologues:=2; %% Generate standard eps (but without font stuff) are accepted. So I conjecture that "3DLFmp.1" is NOT output by MP itself. Right? When "3DLFmp.1A" is processed by Illustrator to "3DLFmp.1A.eps" and then distilled to "3DLFmp.1A.pdf" the result is 'well-framed', and I include it below in ".uu" ASCII format. Naturally, the "origin" label is missing. Comments anyone? Cheers LS BEGIN --------- uuencoded file begin 777 3DLDFmp.1A_Ill.pdf M)5!$1BTQ+C(-)>+CS],-"C(@,"!O8FH-/#P-+TQE;F=T:"`Q,S$S#3X^#7-T M7!E("]086=E#2]0 M87)E;G0@-2`P(%(-+U)E')E9@TP(#D-,#`P,#`P,#`P,"`V-34S-2!F(`TP,#`P,#`Q-C0P M(#`P,#`P(&X@#3`P,#`P,#`P,38@,#`P,#`@;B`-,#`P,#`P,3,X,2`P,#`P M,"!N(`TP,#`P,#`Q-38Y(#`P,#`P(&X@#3`P,#`P,#$W,C`@,#`P,#`@;B`- M,#`P,#`P,30T-R`P,#`P,"!N(`TP,#`P,#`Q.#`Q(#`P,#`P(&X@#3`P,#`P M,#$X-3`@,#`P,#`@;B`-=')A:6QE<@T\/`TO4VEZ92`Y#2]2;V]T(#<@,"!2 M#2]);F9O(#@@,"!2#2])1"!;/#DQ86,V8F$T-S,R.3(X-C1B8V%C,V4Y,C,X M.3EB931C/CPY,6%C-F)A-#')E9@TQ.3@V#24E14]&T ` end END ----------- uuencoded file From - Wed Apr 20 22:16:59 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KKGuMD069433 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:16:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504202016.j3KKGuMD069433@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOLcn-00046x-UR; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:16:54 +0200 X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:16:41 +0200 Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels To: Taco Hoekwater In-Reply-To: <4266718A.9060701@elvenkind.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Cc: Maurizio Vianello , liste metafont Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Laurence Finston" X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:16:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > I don't claim to really understand what you are doing, but would > it perhaps be possible to call 'dvips -E' instead of manually > calculating the needed cropping and using mogrify? I don't know, and I don't have `dvips' on this machine, so I can't check. If it works, I'd be happy to use it rather than calling an additional program. I've had the problem with unwanted rotation before. In the past, I was able to solve it by adding a label, hence the `origin' label in my image. This time it didn't work, though. I hope the `-E' option will solve this problem, too. If it, or some other option or combination of options to `dvips', doesn't solve the problem, I think the best solution would be to use `ghostscript'. Unfortunately, I don't know how to, and I know almost nothing about the PostScript language. But since my solution seems to work, and doesn't require me to install any new packages or spend hours reading documentation, I'll stick with it. Any suggestions for refinements would be welcome, of course. It occurred to me that I don't need `\epsfverbose', since the dimensions of the image are simply the size of the box containing it. I'm pretty sure `\dp0' == 0pt, but I should probably account for it anyway. I think it should be straightforward to write the dimensions of the box to a file from TeX using `\write', but I can't check it now (no TeX on this machine, either). I will probably write a little C program to read in the data and call `dvips', etc. Nor do I need to calculate the conversion factor for converting points to pixels twice, and I should probably round the results, since fractional pixels cannot be represented. It would be nice if I could write the values from MetaPost directly, but unless this feature has been added, it's not possible to open and write to files. I could implement this in GNU 3DLDF, but that won't help MetaPost users. Thank you for your suggestion. I'll try to test it tomorrow. Laurence From - Wed Apr 20 22:35:01 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KKYun3076462 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:34:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504202034.j3KKYun3076462@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOLuQ-0007Ba-N2; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:34:54 +0200 X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:34:54 +0200 Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels To: Larry Siebenmann In-Reply-To: <200504201647.j3KGlGs47594@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: laurent@math.toronto.edu, mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Laurence Finston" X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:34:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > It seems to me that your reply does not address the issue of > robust font integration. But rather the issue of getting a > well-framed "eps" file. That's because I think it should work to declare fonts in a `verbatimtex' environment. Admittedly, I use TeX rather than LaTeX. I've been wondering what the advantage is to using LaTeX for labels in MetaPost. I don't usually do very fancy things within labels. I forgot to ask Maurizio whether he was using math mode in his labels. If not, it might work to just set `prologues' to 1 (or is it 2?). I did have a problem the other day: I tried to put the `verbatimtex' environment with the `\font' declaration in a file that included another MP file, where I wanted to use the font (it was cmr12 scaled to \magstep3, I believe). This didn't work, but once I put it in the included file, I had no trouble. I'll try including a font of my own design and see if it works. I'm optimistic that it will. If it doesn't, I think the problem will be my `texmf.cnf' file and not MetaPost. > Incidentally, I favor using TeX label overlays rather than the > MP label mechanism because they apply uniformly to all sorts > of graphics from all sorts of sources. I use more bitmapped > graphics than vectorial. Furthermore, the font storage for TeX > label overlays is optimally efficient; it is often attrocious > when labels are included in autonomous figure files. As I said, there's usually more than one way to do something. In order to position the labels, one needs to know where to put them. This is probably obvious when making plain 2D graphics with MP, but it's not when using projections, in particular, the perspective projection, with GNU 3DLDF. It would be possible to get the latter to output this information, and if anyone ever asks for it, I'll probably implement it, since it shouldn't be too difficult. > PS. Thanks for the specifics on the dvips "papersize" \special > and the -i option. You're welcome. > > PPS. The issue of well-framed and well-structured "eps" files > can be otherwise resolved by opening (fontless) MP output > files into Adobe Illustrator and resaving in a suitable format > (".pdf" included!!). Last time I checked, this workaround > failed on MP labels. Thanks for the tip. However, I tend to prefer solutions using programs that I can call from the command line, so that I can automate them. I also strongly prefer using Free Software, since I can't include it in my package if it's not (and also on general principles). Is Illustrator free? Of course, it may provide a scripting facility, so someone who knows how to use it might be able to implement an automated solution using it. Laurence From - Wed Apr 20 22:54:54 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KKsmUX082598 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:54:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504202054.j3KKsmUX082598@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOMDf-00026B-7d; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:54:47 +0200 X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:54:47 +0200 Subject: Re: Labels in MetaPost To: Larry Siebenmann In-Reply-To: <200504201849.j3KIn3Z210234@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: laurent@math.toronto.edu, mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Laurence Finston" X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:54:48 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > (but without font stuff) are accepted. So I conjecture that > "3DLFmp.1" is NOT output by MP itself. Right? Wrong. (Sorry to be so blunt). It is output by MP itself. The 3DLDF code is in the file `sample0.ldf': http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/3dldf/3dldf/Group/CWEB/sample0.ldf It's figure 1 (what I was working on most recently). I can't generate the MP output on this machine, but I'll send it to you tomorrow, if you want it. Incidentally, it demonstrates that occlusion works for the vertical rectangle and the bottom horizontal one, but not for the top one. As long as I've got you "on", I hope you don't mind if I take the liberty of asking you whether there's an algebraic formula for the curve on a plane of projection representing the perspective projection of a circle. (I may take to button-holing mathematicians on the street.) > Comments anyone? I haven't had any problems with labels using MP the way I do. As far as MP is concerned, that's up to John Hobby, Taco, Hans, Karl, Jacko, and the other developers, if I've forgotten any . If anyone using GNU 3DLDF feels it's a problem, than I suppose I shall have to implement support for overlays using TeX. It seems like a reasonable alternative to labels and I might be able to implement it in such a way that users don't notice any difference. Perhaps I could add an option to determine which style to use. I admit that I _hate_ it when MP fails because of an error in a label string. Laurence From - Wed Apr 20 22:59:29 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KKxSeU083831 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:59:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504202059.j3KKxSeU083831@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOMI9-0002nj-Vs; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:59:26 +0200 X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:59:25 +0200 Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels To: hobby@plan9.bell-labs.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: metafont@ens.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Laurence Finston" X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:59:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > I have not been following this discussion very closely, but MetaPost > certainly does allow you to write to files. It is documented in > "Drawing Graphs with MetaPost": > write to > or > readfrom Thanks, that may simplify things. Laurence From - Wed Apr 20 23:05:49 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KL5i4N085945 for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:05:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504202105.j3KL5i4N085945@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOMOD-0003lE-UI; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:05:42 +0200 X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:05:36 +0200 Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels To: Laurence Finston In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Cc: Taco Hoekwater , Maurizio Vianello , liste metafont Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Laurence Finston" X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:05:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > I don't claim to really understand what you are doing, If you or anybody else is interested, I would be quite happy to explain. Laurence From - Thu Apr 21 00:34:33 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3KMYTo7012191 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:34:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3KMYOc53816; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:34:24 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:34:24 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504202234.j3KMYOc53816@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: lfinsto1@gwdg.de, mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:34:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi Laurence F. and all, > In order to position the labels, one needs to know where to > put them. labelfig.tex and boxedeps.tex are semi-interactive. The main prerequisite for interactivity is fast preview. > I also strongly prefer using Free Software, since I can't > include it in my package if it's not (and also on general > principles). So do I. But Adobe is not just another commercial. Adobe is author ane maintainer of PostScript and PDF on which TeX and MF now largely depend. Learning what Adobe applications refuse to parse is to learn what those standards are *not* at least for now. The phrase "it's not a bug -- its a feature" applies here. I suspect MP is a bit out of step with Adobe re fonts -- perhaps because MP was programmed before Adode made some key decisions. This is just a guess. > Of course, it [Illustrator] may provide a scripting facility... Yes. But commandline apps are indeed simpler to program. Cheers Laurent S. From - Thu Apr 21 02:22:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3L0MV5J040959 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 02:22:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3L0MNi163862; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:22:23 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:22:23 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504210022.j3L0MNi163862@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: lfinsto1@gwdg.de, mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 02:22:32 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi Laurence F. and all, > Wrong...It is output by MP itself. With "prologues:=2" as required for eps output??? With that setting, Distiller should have responded correctly to the resulting MP output. On the other hand, my GhostView does not give the bounding box EPS commant the blindest bit of attention. ---------- > I hope you don't mind if I take the liberty of asking you > whether there's an algebraic formula for the curve on a plane > of projection representing the perspective projection of a > circle. (I may take to button-holing mathematicians on the > street.) On the image plane it is a conic section, ie an ellipse, a parabola, or hyperbola. The image on the retina of the observer is an ellipse or part thereof. What sort of formulae do you want? Bezier or Nurbs? Implicit or Parametric? With respect to which coordinate system? For such nitty gritty, I'll probably defer to the comp.graphics.algorithms newsgroup where the full time experts lurk. ----------- > I haven't had any problems with labels using MP the way I do. One problem is that you are chained to dvips. Or to mptopdf. TeX label overlays let one use any TeX implementation. On my classic Mac it is not the dvips implementations that have the most comfortable and adequate type1 font setup. And I fear that mptopdf is simply not implemented. > I admit that I _hate_ it when MP fails because of an error in a > label string. Because the processing is diabolically complex. With TeX label overlays it's your most familiar TeX setup at work. Cheers, Laurent S. From - Thu Apr 21 02:22:56 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3L0Mcbl041008 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 02:22:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3L0Ma1163864; Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:22:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:22:36 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504210022.j3L0Ma1163864@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: laurent@math.toronto.edu, mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr, taco@elvenkind.com Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 02:22:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Taco, I wrote: > And I fear that mptopdf is simply not implemented > [on classic Mac]. In fact, what are all the current prerequisites for running mptopdf? I have the vague impression that it involves pdftex emacs and perl. Cheers Laurent S. From - Thu Apr 21 08:43:07 2005 Return-Path: Received: from post-24.mail.nl.demon.net (post-24.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.194]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3L6h5Px047433 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:43:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boo.demon.nl ([82.161.175.147]:34898 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by post-24.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DOVOw-000BVN-E2; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 06:43:02 +0000 Message-ID: <42674AEA.2030301@elvenkind.com> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:40:42 +0200 From: Taco Hoekwater User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050215) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Siebenmann CC: mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels References: <200504210022.j3L0Ma1163864@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> In-Reply-To: <200504210022.j3L0Ma1163864@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:43:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Larry Siebenmann wrote: > Taco, > > I wrote: > > >>And I fear that mptopdf is simply not implemented >>[on classic Mac]. > > > In fact, what are all the current prerequisites for running > mptopdf? I have the vague impression that it involves pdftex > emacs and perl. The actual conversion is done using a format file for pdftex, and mptopdf.pl is a perl script that is nothing other than a small wrapper around a pdftex command line. In normal usage, it comes down to this: pdfetex &mptopdf \relax . rename .pdf -.pdf Where you have give on the command-line. If the Mac classic doesn't have pdfetex, it will not work. Otherwise, you could ignore the perl script, and execute the command yourself. That should work, but you have to figure out how to execute the command on a classic (I do not know). Taco From - Thu Apr 21 08:48:53 2005 Return-Path: Received: from post-22.mail.nl.demon.net (post-22.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.192]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3L6mnXb049056 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:48:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boo.demon.nl ([82.161.175.147]:34900 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by post-22.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DOVUW-000ORp-Ru; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 06:48:49 +0000 Message-ID: <42674C44.70501@elvenkind.com> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:46:28 +0200 From: Taco Hoekwater User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050215) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Siebenmann CC: lfinsto1@gwdg.de, mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels References: <200504210022.j3L0MNi163862@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> In-Reply-To: <200504210022.j3L0MNi163862@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:48:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Larry Siebenmann wrote: > Hi Laurence F. and all, > > > > Wrong...It is output by MP itself. > > With "prologues:=2" > as required for eps output??? > > With that setting, Distiller should have responded > correctly to the resulting MP output. Only when the Distiller itself knows about the used fonts, otherwise there will ben an /undefinedfont error. MetaPost converts tfm names to postscript font names, but it does not actually download the font to the eps output. Taco From - Thu Apr 21 10:51:33 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3L8pTwH099600 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:51:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOXPF-0007s6-3u; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:51:29 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3L8pSK0000406827; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:51:28 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:51:28 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Larry Siebenmann cc: mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: <200504210022.j3L0MNi163862@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> Message-ID: References: <200504210022.j3L0MNi163862@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:51:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Larry Siebenmann wrote: > With "prologues:=2" > as required for eps output??? I don't understand this. I don't set prologues so that I can use TeX fonts. I need to do this because I use a lot of math mode in my labels. There may be PostScript or other fonts that can be used with math mode, but I haven't gone into this. To the best of my knowledge, the files output by MP when prologues is left unset (or set to 0?) is Encapsulated PostScript. > On the image plane it is a conic section, ie an ellipse, a > parabola, or hyperbola. > > The image on the retina of the observer is an ellipse or part > thereof. > > What sort of formulae do you want? Bezier or Nurbs? Implicit or > Parametric? Implicit and/or parametric. The latter would probably be most useful. I'm currently at work on polygons, i.e., plane figures made up of straight lines. The next steps are polyhedra and then circles and ellipses, followed by the other conic sections. Arbitrary curves implemented as NURBs are rather far off, I'm afraid. Straight lines are providing quite enough intellectual stimulation at the moment. However, I would like to know about the projections of ellipses and the other conic sections, if I'm not trying your patience too much. The real problem is finding the intersections in order to decompose the objects. > With respect to which coordinate system? That of the plane of projection. I suppose the origin could most conveniently be the projection of the origin in the world coordinate system, but perhaps someone has a better suggestion. > > > I haven't had any problems with labels using MP the way I do. > > One problem is that you are chained to dvips. Indeed. There are other dvi-to-something drivers, but I haven't looked into this topic. > Or to mptopdf. I don't usually use PDF. For my work, I don't see any advantage to using it rather than PS. > TeX label overlays let one use any TeX implementation. I'm convinced of the usefulness of this approach. Laurence From - Thu Apr 21 11:41:41 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3L9fW3X020891 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:41:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOYBg-0003mA-IB; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:41:32 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3L9fW30000408314; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:41:32 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:41:32 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Taco Hoekwater cc: Maurizio Vianello , liste metafont Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: <4266718A.9060701@elvenkind.com> Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <4266718A.9060701@elvenkind.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:41:33 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote: > I don't claim to really understand what you are doing, but would > it perhaps be possible to call 'dvips -E' instead of manually > calculating the needed cropping and using mogrify? I've checked the dvips manual, and the `-E' option causes it to produce EPSF, which I assume is what I've been calling EPS, i.e., Encapsulated PostScript. However, the whole point of the exercise is to convert EPS, as output by MP, to structured PostScript. Somebody once used this term; in the course of working on this problem I saw the term "standard PostScript" somewhere. So I'm afraid using the `-E' option won't work. I'm a bit pressed for time, otherwise I would double-check this. However, having been through this in the past, I'm fairly certain that it won't work. Dvips seems to operate on the assumptions that one wants to print a document on a printer, use a paper size corresponding to actual paper, and that all of the pages of the document should be printed on paper of the same size. These seem like reasonable assumptions, but do not apply in the present case, causing me to jump through all sorts of hoops. It may be possible to write a configuration file for an imaginary printer that will accept any paper size, but I don't know whether it's worthwhile trying to do this, at least for me. ImageMagick seems to be included in all of the GNU/Linux distributions I use, and I don't think it was installed specially. I'm afraid I'm usually not much help to people using Windows. To summarize: The problem is converting the EPS produced by MP to other formats. ImageMagick's `convert' can't convert it to PNG and I'm fairly sure that `ps2pdf' can't convert it to PDF (not double-checking these things, either). The problem seems to be, as Laurent S. has pointed out, the fonts. Converting the EPS files to structured PostScript solves the problem. My method doesn't actually convert them, it includes them in a TeX file of the same size as the image. It's easy to put borders around the image either in MetaPost, TeX, or by using `mogrify'. Since dvips seems to have problems with non-standard paper sizes, I just use a standard one, put the image in the middle, and use `mogrify' to cut off the edges. I plan to write a little C program to automate the process and I'll put it in the CVS archive on Savannah for GNU 3DLDF, if anyone wants it. I need this myself, so I'll probably do it within the next couple of days. Of course, someone might have a better solution, or just prefer a different one. Laurence From - Thu Apr 21 12:02:22 2005 Return-Path: Received: from glenfiddich.elvenkind.com (elvenknd.xs4all.nl [213.84.171.68]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3LA2FP1029873 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:02:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by glenfiddich.elvenkind.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384961EF5C; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:03:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from glenfiddich.elvenkind.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (glenfiddich.elvenkind.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08926-03; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:03:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.10.0.6] (glenlivet.elvenkind.com [10.10.0.6]) by glenfiddich.elvenkind.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A66F1C026; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:03:52 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <42677A25.1060600@elvenkind.com> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:02:13 +0200 From: Taco Hoekwater User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laurence Finston Cc: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <4266718A.9060701@elvenkind.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at elvenkind.net X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:02:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Laurence Finston wrote: > On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote: > > To summarize: > The problem is converting the EPS produced by MP to other > formats. ImageMagick's `convert' can't convert it to PNG > and I'm fairly sure that `ps2pdf' can't convert it to PDF > (not double-checking these things, either). If you are not interested in investigating available solutions, you can of course invent your own. But clearly you have not read the PostScript manuals, or you would not have to use new vocabularies like 'standard postscript' to express the semantic entity Adobe calls 'Encapsulated PostScript [File]' or EPS[F], for short. Greetings, Taco PS You are aware of the fact that PostScript is not what you would call 'free', right? It is just as proprietary as PDF; both being designed, published, copyrighted, trademarked and controlled by Adobe Inc. From - Thu Apr 21 12:36:08 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3LAa6aj042373 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:36:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOZ2U-0001mp-2P; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:36:06 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3LAa5P0000410386; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:36:05 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:36:05 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Taco Hoekwater cc: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: <42677A25.1060600@elvenkind.com> Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <4266718A.9060701@elvenkind.com> <42677A25.1060600@elvenkind.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:36:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote: > If you are not interested in investigating available solutions, > you can of course invent your own. I don't quite get your point. TeX, dvips, and ImageMagick are all available. All I've done is combine them. Other suggestions specifically involved PDF, which I'm not particularly interested in. I'm perfectly happy to use `ps2pdf' to convert PS to PDF. > But clearly you have not > read the PostScript manuals, I've already stated that I know virtually nothing about the PostScript language. I've had a couple of books out of the library, but it hasn't seemed urgent to learn it, since I've been able to muddle through without it, so far, as in this case. > or you would not have to use new > vocabularies like 'standard postscript' to express the semantic > entity Adobe calls 'Encapsulated PostScript [File]' or EPS[F], > for short. I got the impression that standard PostScript was a synonym for structured PostScript, or perhaps the correct term. I believe I read the term last night in the dvips manual and that this kind of PostScript format differs from Encapsulated PostScript. In particular, I don't believe it's possible to include a structured PS file, say, generated by means of TeX and dvips, in another TeX file using `\epsffile'. I'm not double-checking this, and I think it's conceivable that there's some way of making it work. > PS You are aware of the fact that PostScript is not what you would > call 'free', right? It is just as proprietary as PDF; both being > designed, published, copyrighted, trademarked and controlled by > Adobe Inc. Documentation for GNU packages can be distributed as PostScript and PDF files, so apparently the FSF/GNU Project doesn't have a problem with them. This is good enough for me. I use the term "Free Software" in the sense of the GNU General Public License. I am not trying to impose my views on anyone. I was responding to a specific suggestion made by Laurent S. Laurence From - Thu Apr 21 12:47:11 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mail.artcom-gmbh.de (ns1.artcom-gmbh.de [62.145.22.162]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3LAl59t047280 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:47:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [196.0.0.38] (helo=artcom8.artcom-gmbh.de) by mail.artcom-gmbh.de with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DOZD7-0000pD-1K for metafont@ens.fr; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:47:05 +0200 Received: from blau.artcom-gmbh.de by artcom8.artcom-gmbh.de with esmtp (Smail3.2 #1) id m1DOZD5-005VITC; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:47:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: by blau.artcom-gmbh.de (Postfix, from userid 530) id F333114861144; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:47:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:47:03 +0200 From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Schr=F6der?= To: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels Message-ID: <20050421104703.GN5790@blau.artcom-gmbh.de> Mail-Followup-To: metafont@ens.fr References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <4266718A.9060701@elvenkind.com> <42677A25.1060600@elvenkind.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:47:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On 2005-04-21 12:36:05 +0200, Laurence Finston wrote: > I've already stated that I know virtually nothing about the PostScript > language. I've had a couple of books out of the library, but it hasn't > seemed urgent to learn it, since I've been able to muddle through without > it, so far, as in this case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/ps/index_specs.html Your "structured postscript" is DSC: http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/ps/5001.DSC_Spec.pdf Best regards Martin PS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MetaPost :-) -- http://www.tm.oneiros.de From - Thu Apr 21 12:48:11 2005 Return-Path: Received: from post-24.mail.nl.demon.net (post-24.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.194]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3LAm6pE047815 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:48:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boo.demon.nl ([82.161.175.147]:34936 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by post-24.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DOZE1-000KsH-Ck; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:48:01 +0000 Message-ID: <42678454.8040109@elvenkind.com> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:45:40 +0200 From: Taco Hoekwater User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050215) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laurence Finston CC: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <4266718A.9060701@elvenkind.com> <42677A25.1060600@elvenkind.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:48:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Laurence Finston wrote: > On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote: > > I don't quite get your point. My point was that where you now apparently go through a complex bit with mogrify cropping A4 or letter sized pages generated by dvips, you can just use *only* dvips to get the same effect, by using it's -E commandline (it makes dvips create pages that are the exactly the size of the 'bounding box' of the stuff on the DVI page). > TeX, dvips, and ImageMagick are all > available. All I've done is combine them. Other suggestions specifically > involved PDF, which I'm not particularly interested in. I'm perfectly > happy to use `ps2pdf' to convert PS to PDF. So you go through these steps mp->tex->dvi->ps (pstopdf optional, dvi unwanted) mptopdf does mp->tex->pdf->ps (pdf unwanted) both are fine. I was just amazed why you wanted/used mogrify. Taco From - Thu Apr 21 12:48:35 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3LAmTSg048014 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:48:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOZE7-0004c4-3A; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:48:18 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3LAm6D0000410540; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:48:06 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:48:06 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Larry Siebenmann cc: mauvia@mate.polimi.it, metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <200504201849.j3KIn3Z210234@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> Message-ID: References: <200504201849.j3KIn3Z210234@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:48:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Larry Siebenmann wrote: > So I conjecture that > "3DLFmp.1" is NOT output by MP itself. Right? Just in case you feel like experimenting some more, I've included the 3DLDF code and the MetaPost code it generates below. Laurence ***************************************** %%%% crop_0.ldf %%%% This file is part of GNU 3DLDF, a package for three-dimensional drawing. %%%% Copyright (C) 2003, 2004, 2005 The Free Software Foundation [...] string s; s := "input boxes; defaultdx:=.75cm; defaultdy:=.75cm;"; pickup pencircle scaled 3; verbatim_metapost s; focus f; set f with_position (-5, 5, -10) with_direction (-5, 5, 10) with_distance 10; rectangle rp[]; picture save_picture; rp0 := unit_rectangle scaled 5 rotated 90; rp1 := unit_rectangle scaled 5 shifted (0, -1); rp2 := unit_rectangle scaled 5 shifted (0, 1); beginfig(1); draw rp0 with_draw_color blue; draw rp1 with_draw_color red; draw rp2 with_draw_color yellow; save_picture := current_picture; clear current_picture; filldraw rp0 with_draw_color blue with_fill_color orange; filldraw rp1 with_draw_color red with_fill_color green; filldraw rp2 with_draw_color yellow with_fill_color violet; dotlabel.top("origin", origin); endfig with_focus f with_surface_hiding; end; ***************************** %%%% crop_0.mp. %%%% Generated on Thu Apr 21 12:41:26 2005 %%%% from crop_0.ldf by GNU 3DLDF 1.2.0.0. input boxes; pickup pencircle scaled .25mm;defaultdx:=.75cm; defaultdy:=.75cm; beginfig(1); fill (7.500000cm, -7.500000cm) -- (7.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- (2.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- (2.500000cm, -7.500000cm) -- cycle withcolor (1.000000, 0.647059, 0.000000); fill (7.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- (6.000000cm, -4.800000cm) -- (2.000000cm, -4.800000cm) -- (2.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- cycle withcolor (0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000); fill (7.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- (7.500000cm, -2.500000cm) -- (2.500000cm, -2.500000cm) -- (2.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- cycle withcolor (1.000000, 0.647059, 0.000000); fill (10.000000cm, -8.000000cm) -- (7.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- (2.500000cm, -6.000000cm) -- (3.333333cm, -8.000000cm) -- cycle withcolor (0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000); fill (3.333333cm, -5.333333cm) -- (10.000000cm, -5.333333cm) -- (6.000000cm, -3.200000cm) -- (2.000000cm, -3.200000cm) -- cycle withcolor (0.933333, 0.509804, 0.933333); draw (3.333333cm, -5.333333cm) -- (10.000000cm, -5.333333cm) -- (6.000000cm, -3.200000cm) -- (2.000000cm, -3.200000cm) -- cycle withcolor (1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000) ; label.top(btex origin etex, (5.000000cm, -5.000000cm)) ;begingroup interim linecap := rounded; drawdot (5.000000cm, -5.000000cm) withpen pencircle scaled dotlabeldiam;endgroup; endfig; From - Thu Apr 21 13:11:50 2005 Return-Path: Received: from post-23.mail.nl.demon.net (post-23.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.193]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3LBBiMk057267 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:11:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boo.demon.nl ([82.161.175.147]:34957 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by post-23.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DOZay-000M5U-1M; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:11:44 +0000 Message-ID: <426789E3.2080407@elvenkind.com> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:09:23 +0200 From: Taco Hoekwater User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050215) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laurence Finston CC: Maurizio Vianello , liste metafont Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080907050004030008090707" X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:11:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080907050004030008090707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Laurence, Perhaps the TeX attachment is useful? Usage: tex runcrop or tex \\def\file{crop} \\input runcrop Then, afterwards, do dvips -E -i -S 1 runcrop Bye, Taco Laurence Finston wrote: > One advantage to automating the process is that it makes it possible > to rename the eps files. I've tried to use `\count' registers for > the numerical suffixes within a loop in TeX, but I couldn't get it > to work. Therefore, I find it more convenient to rename the EPS > files output by MetaPost when I want to do this, e.g., `a.1' to `a_1.eps'. > For some reason, I could get looping to work when the names had this form. > I don't know what the problem is. > However, if you use an Emacs-Lisp function or a shell script to generate > your TeX code, you could just let it do the looping and not bother > changing the names. > > >>I'll try that out. Someone suggested to use mptopdf, a program >>from the people of "context " and it seems to work well, too, >>even if, as >>you say, that solution would depend on some fancy external program. > > > There's usually not just one way of doing something. > If you want to try it my way and have any questions, > please feel free to ask. > > Laurence > --------------080907050004030008090707 Content-Type: application/x-tex; name="runcrop.tex" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="runcrop.tex" \expandafter\ifx\csname file\endcsname \relax \let\file\jobname \fi \input epsf \nopagenumbers \newread \testin \newcount \looper \looper=0 \loop \ifnum\looper < 4096 \pageno=\looper \immediate\openin \testin \file.\the\looper \relax \ifeof\testin \else \hbox{\epsffile{\file.\the\looper}}% \vfill\break \fi \closein\testin \advance\looper1 \repeat \bye --------------080907050004030008090707-- From - Thu Apr 21 13:15:19 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3LBFF0x058722 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:15:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOZeN-0001wF-5y; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:15:15 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3LBFFD0000409812; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:15:15 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:15:14 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Taco Hoekwater cc: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: <42678454.8040109@elvenkind.com> Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <4266718A.9060701@elvenkind.com> <42677A25.1060600@elvenkind.com> <42678454.8040109@elvenkind.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:15:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote: > My point was that where you now apparently go through a complex bit > with mogrify cropping A4 or letter sized pages generated by dvips, > you can just use *only* dvips to get the same effect, by using it's > -E commandline (it makes dvips create pages that are the exactly the > size of the 'bounding box' of the stuff on the DVI page). Yes, but it cannot be converted to PNG using convert. At least it couldn't the last time I tried. I also believe that it can't be converted to PDF using `ps2pdf'. I think I tried this, too, but it would be worth double-checking. > So you go through these steps > > mp->tex->dvi->ps (pstopdf optional, dvi unwanted) Yes. I wouldn't say that the dvi file was unwanted, though. It might be useful for debugging purposes. If someone wants PDF, I suppose `pdftex' would do the trick. I don't know how EPS files are included when using `pdftex'. In general, I prefer to use Knuth's own software (and John Hobby's MP, of course), rather than similar software written by others. For example, I prefer to use CWEB rather than any of the other literate programming tools and plain TeX rather than LaTeX. Again, I'm not trying to impose my views on others, but I do feel that it's a point of view that new users of TeX, MF, MP, etc., often don't hear. > > mptopdf does > > mp->tex->pdf->ps (pdf unwanted) > > both are fine. I agree. How do you get from pdf to ps? Does mptopdf do this itself or does one have to call pdf2ps? I got the following error when I tried `mptopdf': mptopdf 3DLDFmp.1 This is pdfeTeX, Version 3.14159-1.00a-pretest-20011114-ojmw-2.1 (Web2C 7.3.7) (./3DLDFmp.1 Error: mptopdf (file pdftex.cfg): cannot open config file This looks like a problem with the installation, so it's no criticism of the technique. However, it does make me not want to bother pursuing it, having found another solution. Just as having to install ImageMagick might make my solution unattractive to someone else. > I was just amazed why you wanted/used mogrify. Since I was forced much against my will to generate PS output in a standard paper size, I needed a way of cutting off the edges. `mogrify' did the trick. In general, I've been very satisfied with ImageMagick and I'd like to learn to use it better. Laurence From - Thu Apr 21 13:18:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3LBIb16059931 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:18:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOZhd-0002pq-FN; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:18:37 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3LBIbY0000409767; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:18:37 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:18:37 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Taco Hoekwater cc: Maurizio Vianello , liste metafont Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: <426789E3.2080407@elvenkind.com> Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <426789E3.2080407@elvenkind.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:18:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Taco Hoekwater wrote: > Perhaps the TeX attachment is useful? Very nice, thanks. I assume you've tested it, so I'll take your word for it. I'll try it out when I get the chance. Laurence From - Thu Apr 21 14:17:26 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mail.artcom-gmbh.de (ns1.artcom-gmbh.de [62.145.22.162]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3LCHJ5g086085 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:17:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [196.0.0.38] (helo=artcom8.artcom-gmbh.de) by mail.artcom-gmbh.de with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DOacR-0001aZ-EG for metafont@ens.fr; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:17:19 +0200 Received: from blau.artcom-gmbh.de by artcom8.artcom-gmbh.de with esmtp (Smail3.2 #1) id m1DOacQ-005TsBC; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:17:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: by blau.artcom-gmbh.de (Postfix, from userid 530) id E63EF1487172B; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:17:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:17:18 +0200 From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Schr=F6der?= To: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels Message-ID: <20050421121718.GP5790@blau.artcom-gmbh.de> Mail-Followup-To: metafont@ens.fr References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <4266718A.9060701@elvenkind.com> <42677A25.1060600@elvenkind.com> <42678454.8040109@elvenkind.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:17:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On 2005-04-21 13:15:14 +0200, Laurence Finston wrote: > This is pdfeTeX, Version 3.14159-1.00a-pretest-20011114-ojmw-2.1 (Web2C This is ancient. Please update. Best regards Martin -- http://www.tm.oneiros.de From - Thu Apr 21 16:26:09 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3LEQ5E2034786 for ; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:26:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOcd2-0008ML-Ro for metafont@ens.fr; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:26:05 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3LEQ4N0000416619; Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:26:04 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:26:04 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: liste metafont Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> <6.2.1.2.0.20050420132738.03a3f4a8@pop2.mate.polimi.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="352865414-920060214-1114093564=:414592" X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:26:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --352865414-920060214-1114093564=:414592 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, I have attached a compressed archive file containing the files listed below. I've also uploaded them to `http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/3dldf/3dldf/Group/CWEB /EXAMPLES/CROPPING/'. cnepspng.web: A CWEB file containing code for a program that crops PostScript files. It's still in a fairly crude form, but since it seems to work as far as it goes, I thought someone might be interested. Eventually, I'll have it write the TeX file and generate PNG files (and PDF, if desired). I also plan to add arguments for the borders. It could be refined in lots of ways, but I have no more time for it today. To use it, run the following commands: ctangle cnepspng gcc -o cnepspng -g -lm cnepspng.c tex crop_0 dvips -i -S 1 -o crop_0ps. -p 1 -l 5 crop_0 cnepspng crop_0 1 4 It works for me; I hope it does for you, too. cnepspng.c: The C code generated from cnepspng.web, for those without ctangle. crop_0.tex: The TeX file for including the EPS files. Eventually it will be generated automatically by `cnepspng'. After TeX is run, dvips must be called as follows: dvips -i -S 1 -o crop_0ps. -p 1 -l 5 crop_0 The first page, numbered 0 in TeX, must be empty, or `\immediate\write' doesn't work. I don't know why not. Perhaps someone on this list knows. Information about the size of the boxes is written to `crop_0.msm', which is read by `cnepspng'. crop_0.1 crop_0.1 crop_0.2 crop_0.3 crop_0.4: The EPS file included by crop_0.tex. I hope someone finds this useful. 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- Fri Apr 22 16:21:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3MELoBP047564 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:21:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOz2U-0006db-FT; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:21:50 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3MELoR0000472358; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:21:50 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:21:49 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Maurizio Vianello cc: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="352865414-1220555211-1114179709=:469751" X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:21:51 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --352865414-1220555211-1114179709=:469751 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello, I have now revised `cnepspng' so that it runs TeX, `dvips', `mogrify', and `convert'. Given the files `crop_0.1', `crop_0.2', `crop_0.3', and `crop_0.4', it creates the following files: crop_0_1.png crop_0_1.ps crop_0_2.png crop_0_2.ps crop_0_3.png crop_0_3.ps crop_0_4.png crop_0_4.ps `cnepspng' takes 1 required argument, namely the filename of the EPS files without the extension, e.g., `crop_0': cnepspng crop_0 The other arguments are optional: Argument 2: The number of the first EPS file to be processed, default 1. Argument 3: The number of the last EPS file to be processed, default 100. `cnepspng' loops from n == argument 2 to n == argument 3. It breaks off if .n doesn't exist. Argument 4: The size of the border to the left and right of the image, default 1cm. Argument 5: The size of the border at the top and bottom of the image, default 1cm. For example, to create structured PostScript and PNG files from `image.2', `image.3', `image.4', and `image.5' with 2.5cm of blank space at the left and right and 37.65pc at the top and bottom, call `cnepspng' like this: cnepspng image 2 5 2.5cm 37.65pc The compressed archive file contains the following files: cnepspng.c cnepspng.web crop_0.1 crop_0.2 crop_0.3 crop_0.4 I have also uploaded them to: http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/3dldf/3dldf/Group/CWEB/ EXAMPLES/CROPPING/ Unless there are any questions, I will not be reporting any more changes to `cnepspng'. I will continue to upload it to Savannah, but I will probably put it in another directory. The log entry for `cnepspng.web' at the URL listed above will indicate where I've put it. If anyone decides to try it out, I'd appreciate it if he or she would let me know about any problems. Thanks. 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dBj0tzp1DUlKmRAK4s07hLuvO5vc0OT0wu8+L6aS0aXDremNNAXKWymkqeHp u9IGE5R0zUj7Wdlf4jBdllQjpwj2JsmmidccqqqZJnxCUNFu42fLbLXSz+To NKtP6JPmyJh9JKTNfF2z3LBZ10OzLEozL2f8UqBm3NPalHvSmLNvVvST8U8a FfpoFoZTrCy3re1GkKggcHE0y1mAoUt6C+8/JbXdST3HSk0s1oSoz2gr1DAk QzFbekpfk5rnAstbnByo1QcASwaW5WZ/fs/nBo/P4/P4PD6Pz+Pz+Pzfff4N qEFX2AB4AAA= --352865414-1220555211-1114179709=:469751-- From - Fri Apr 22 16:50:01 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3MEnxkc058699 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:49:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DOzTR-000456-Jv; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:49:59 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3MEnfQ0000472817; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:49:41 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:49:41 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: Maurizio Vianello cc: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050419145857.039ff140@pop2.mate.polimi.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:49:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Laurence Finston wrote: > > I have now revised `cnepspng' so that it runs TeX, `dvips', > `mogrify', and `convert'. IMPORTANT!! Please note that `cnepspng' creates and deletes temporary files, so that if you want to create a structured PostScript and a PNG file from `.', `cnepspng' will create and delete `_.tex', `_.log', `_.dvi', and `.msm'. The `.msm' file doesn't use the suffix. So if you already have files with these names, you should back them up before running `cnepspng'. Laurence From - Fri Apr 22 19:20:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailhost.uark.edu (mailhost.uark.edu [130.184.5.66]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3MHKk6x017868 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mathfolk.uark.edu ([130.184.197.23]) by mailhost.uark.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0IFC0005UYTFJA@mailhost.uark.edu> for metafont@ens.fr; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:20:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:20:04 -0500 From: Dan Luecking Subject: Re: [metafont] Epstopdf and Lucida fonts in labels In-reply-to: <200504202234.j3KMYOc53816@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: metafont@ens.fr Message-id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050422120515.01c20e20@mail.uark.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.0.14 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <200504202234.j3KMYOc53816@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:20:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 At 05:34 PM 4/20/2005, you wrote: >Hi Laurence F. and all, > > > In order to position the labels, one needs to know where to > > put them. > >labelfig.tex and boxedeps.tex are semi-interactive. The main >prerequisite for interactivity is fast preview. All one needs is some sort of environment (such as the picture environment) arranged to have a coordinate system that matches that of the figure. Then one can use the same coordinates to place text that one would have used to place it in the .mp file. The TeX/LaTeX package mfpic, which creates either .mf or .mp figures, does this automatically: arranging for the text placement macros to use the same coordinate system as the drawing macros. >I suspect MP is a bit out of step with Adobe re fonts -- >perhaps because MP was programmed before Adode made some key >decisions. This is just a guess. More likely Hobby didn't want to supply fonts, and couldn't rely on the availability of any particular set of fonts on any particular system, and so left font inclusion (AFAIK the only place MP output fails to be standard EPS) to external programs such as dvips. Dan Daniel H. Luecking Department of Mathematical Sciences University of Arkansas "Be kind. Every person you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Anon. From - Fri Apr 22 22:01:14 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3MK154q070043 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:01:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3MK11r38522; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:01:01 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:01:01 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504222001.j3MK11r38522@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: laurent@math.toronto.edu, lfinsto1@gwdg.de, metafont@ens.fr Subject: button-hole problem X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:01:08 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi Laurence F. and others, Having been button-holed as follows on Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:54:47 +0200: > I hope you don't mind if I take the liberty of asking you > whether there's an algebraic formula for the curve on a plane > of projection representing the perspective projection of a > circle. (I may take to button-holing mathematicians on the > street.) I answered "off-the-cuff": > On the image plane it is a conic section, ie an ellipse, a > parabola, or hyperbola. If you almost understood this answer, read on; otherwise stop right here. When you get a simple answer to a simple geometric question in computer graphics, BEWARE that it is likely to be no more than "generically true". That's the case here. There are other things you can sometimes get by projecting a circle in 3-space from a point onto a plane. For example, if the projection point is on the target plane, which happens to be disjoint from the circle, then the projected circle is the EMPTY SET. However, from an answer that is generically true one can usually (with some work) deduce the general answer -- which is often rather complicated and correspondingly OBSCURE. For example, the generic (and stable) affine classification of complete bezier cubic loci (forgetting parameters) is just twofold: doublepoint versus inflexion pair. But the full classification is a bit of a mess. See the MP list for details Incidentally, the parabolic case above is not generic or stable *unless* one considers movies, or one states that the union (elliptic case) \cup (parabolic case) \cup (hyperbolic) case) is stable and generic. ---------------- I went on to say: > The image on the retina of the observer is an > ellipse or part thereof. The retina of the eye of an observer is (mathematically) not a plane but rather a small sphere around the center of the eye. So what did I mean by an ellipse on the retina?? I meant the intersection, with that sphere, of a cone having center the eye's center, and with base an ellipse in a well chosen plane far from the eye. My statement has this interesting corollary: A (generic) photograph of a small piece of an ellipse cannot be distinguished from a photograph of a small piece of of a hyperbola or parabola. Crime labs beware! ---------------- As for algebraic formulae, I assume you are happy with pointwise execution so I suggest you just compose two perspectivities in R^3: (1) the given perspsectivity projecting from the given circle to the target plane in 3-space. (2) the perspectivity with center the eye of the (imaginary) television camera, that maps from the mentioned target plane to the computer screen. This lets you move any number of points from your original circle to the computer screen in such a way that you "see" on the screen the given projection of the circle. Once you have 5 points of the screen image, you can (if you wish) get all other points on screen by programming 2-dimensional Pascal's theorem in MP. Cheers Laurent S. From - Fri Apr 22 23:08:06 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3ML80aY090475 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:08:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504222108.j3ML80aY090475@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DP5NR-0005WT-NI; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:07:58 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: <200504222001.j3MK11r38522@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:07:53 +0200 Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: Larry Siebenmann User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:08:00 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 From: Larry Siebenmann >>> [is there] an algebraic formula for the curve on a plane >>> of projection representing the perspective projection of a >>> circle? > I answered "off-the-cuff": > > > On the image plane it is a conic section, ie an ellipse, a > > parabola, or hyperbola. > > If you almost understood this answer, read on; otherwise stop > right here. After I posted my question, I was somewhat mortified when I remembered something about circles in perspective always being ellipses. When I thought about it some more, I wasn't sure whether this was perhaps only true of circles in planes parallel to one of the main planes (x-y, x-z, or z-y). I have a couple of plastic templates of perspective ellipses---they are still available in stores, but are probably destined to go the way of the slide rule. I believe that a circle that is coplanar with the ray of vision and perpendicular to the plane of projection must be a straight line. Perhaps others are really all elliptical; I wish I knew how to figure this out. At any rate, I regretted not having asked about conic sections in the first place. I'd also be interested in knowing about the effect of non-affine transformations on them other than the perspective transformation, if I haven't exhausted your patience already. I suspect this is probably something that I won't be able to understand, though. > For example, if the > projection point is on the target plane, which happens to be > disjoint from the circle, then the projected circle is the > EMPTY SET. Wouldn't it be a point, namely the projection point, or what I call the focus? And wouldn't the projections of all other objects in the 3D space be that same point? In GNU 3DLDF, this would imply that the `distance' element of the `Focus' object would be 0, which would probably fail anyway, probably because of a division by 0 somewhere. > > However, from an answer that is generically true one can > usually (with some work) deduce the general answer -- which > is often rather complicated and correspondingly OBSCURE. For > example, the generic (and stable) affine classification of > complete bezier cubic loci (forgetting parameters) is just > twofold: doublepoint versus inflexion pair. But the full > classification is a bit of a mess. See the MP list for > details I'm working on non-arbitrary geometric figures because they're easier than Bezier curves. Consider the task of dividing a polyhedron using a plane. From a mathematician's point of view, this is trivial, but programming it will certainly take me quite a few hours. In fact, I have already spent many hours working on the "preliminaries", which are features in their own right. Once it works, it should be possible to extend it to dividing a polyhedron by another polyhedron. I'm looking forward to making a sequence of pictures with two polyhedra passing through each other. However, I still have a couple of unsolved problems involving the occlusion of two polygons, so I'll have to solve them first. I have also given quite a bit of thought to representing what I am calling "ellipse slices" and "circle slices". These are the figures resulting from dividing ellipses and circles by straight lines and/or other ellipses and circles, once or multiple times. Someone has been kind enough to explain to me how one can find the intersections of two ellipses algebraically, but unfortunately I don't have the mathematical background to understand the explanation. This is by way of explaining why I'm not in such a hurry to get stuck into Bezier curves. > > Incidentally, the parabolic case above is not generic or > stable *unless* one considers movies, or one states that the > union > > (elliptic case) \cup (parabolic case) \cup (hyperbolic) case) > > is stable and generic. > Would it be possible to express these ideas in words of one syllable? > I meant the intersection, with that sphere, of a cone having > center the eye's center, and with base an ellipse in a well > chosen plane far from the eye. > This is interesting, but I think it may not be of practical importance for 3DLDF. So far, I've been satisifed with projection onto a plane. Should I be concerned with the intersection of spheres and cones and the center of the eye? This is a genuine question. > ---------------- > > As for algebraic formulae, I assume you are happy with > pointwise execution I'm not sure. I've been thinking about this lately. In some ways, it's useful to have the individual points available. In other ways, it might be useful to just store the center of an object and a transformation matrix. I haven't made a decision about this yet. If you have an opinion, I'd be quite interested to hear it. > so I suggest you just compose two > perspectivities in R^3: > > (1) the given perspsectivity projecting from the given circle > to the target plane in 3-space. > > (2) the perspectivity with center the eye of the (imaginary) > television camera, that maps from the mentioned target > plane to the computer screen. > > This lets you move any number of points from your original > circle to the computer screen in such a way that you "see" > on the screen the given projection of the circle. What I do is the following: A `Focus' contains a `Point' representing the position of the "camera" in space and another representing the direction of view. The "up" direction is determined somehow, I don't remember how, and can be modified by using a `real' value for an angle of rotation. These values are used to determine a transformation which would place the position point and the direction point on the z-axis and the plane of projection into the x-y plane. This transformation is then applied to all of the objects in the space before applying the perspective transformation. > > Once you have 5 points of the screen image, you can (if you > wish) get all other points on screen by programming > 2-dimensional Pascal's theorem in MP. I'll have to look up Pascal's theorem. I'm afraid my reach exceeds my grasp when it comes to math. Thank you; I appreciate your help very much. Laurence From - Sat Apr 23 01:46:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from web26909.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (web26909.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.146.176.98]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with SMTP id j3MNjtGW038397 for ; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:45:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 96320 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Apr 2005 23:45:55 -0000 Message-ID: <20050422234555.96318.qmail@web26909.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [134.58.253.131] by web26909.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:45:54 CEST Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:45:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Peter Vanroose Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem To: Laurence Finston , Larry Siebenmann Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <200504222108.j3ML80aY090475@nef2.ens.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:45:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > On the image plane it is a conic section, ie an ellipse, a > parabola, or hyperbola. ... > After I posted my question, I was somewhat mortified when I > remembered something about circles in perspective always being > ellipses. No, circles can indeed project as a parabola or a hyperbola. Take the following example: - project onto a horizontal plane. - place a circle vertically with its lowest L point on that plane. - take as projection "eye" point P any point which is at the same height above the plane as the highest point H of the circle. In this case the projection is a parabola, with its top in L and its axis parallel to the line PH. If you want a hyperbola, move the eye point P a bit down (towards the projection plane). If you want an ellipse, move P upward. -- Peter. From - Sat Apr 23 01:57:58 2005 Return-Path: Received: from web26902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (web26902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.146.176.91]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with SMTP id j3MNvpmd041490 for ; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:57:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 24614 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Apr 2005 23:57:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20050422235751.24612.qmail@web26902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [134.58.253.131] by web26902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:57:51 CEST Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:57:51 +0200 (CEST) From: Peter Vanroose Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org Subject: Re: [metafont] button-hole problem To: Larry Siebenmann , lfinsto1@gwdg.de, metafont@ens.fr In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:57:51 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > For example, if the projection point is on the target plane, > which happens to be disjoint from the circle, then the projected > circle is the EMPTY SET. No, in this case it's the projection point. Which actually is a special case of a circle: one with radius 0. So even in this case the projection of the circle is a conic section (which is actually a circle). The only situation where the projection is empty, is when the projection point is in the same plane as the circle, and the projection plane is parallel to this plane. (Actually, in that case the projection is a line interval at infinity. So in projective space the projection is again non-empty. And again a conic section, now a degenerate ellipse.) -- Peter. From - Sun Apr 24 07:36:37 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3O5Xwrv023439 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:33:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3O3LPu66798; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:21:25 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:21:25 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504240321.j3O3LPu66798@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: laurent@math.toronto.edu, lfinsto1@gwdg.de, metafont@ens.fr, peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: button-hole problem X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 07:33:59 +0200 (CEST) Hi Laurence F. Me> For example, if the > projection point is on the target plane, which happens to be > disjoint from the circle, then the projected circle is the > EMPTY SET. You> Wouldn't it be a point, namely the projection point You are quite right, I boobed; as Peter Vanroose further explained, a cone on an empty set is not empty but the cone point. Unfortunately, programmers usually have to pay attention to degenerate cases -- they are like accidents waiting to happen. > occlusion of two polygons ??? whazzat? I mentioned radial projection of objects in R^3 onto the spherical retina of an imaginary eye. You answered: > This is interesting, but I think it may not be of > practical importance for 3DLDF. You can ignore it. But it is helpful to consider because the sphere (eye) with opposite points identified is a model of projective 2-space RP^2. One in which no particular line at infinity is has privilege and in which the compactness of RP^2 is obvious. It is natural since God gave your users spherical eyes and a preception of projective geometry through them. > it might be useful to just store the center of an > object and a transformation matrix. I favor 3-dimensional scenes which one can journey through with a computer. > What I do is the following: A `Focus' contains a > `Point' representing the position of the "camera" in > space > .... > `Focus::position' This would be the center C of my eye. > and another representing the direction of view. > .... > `Focus::direction' This is direction CP, where P is the center of the pupil of my eye. > The "up" direction is determined somehow, I don't > remember how, It is determined by gravity via the inner ear, I believe. > and can be modified by using a `real' > value for an angle of rotation. OK. But, my eye tends to resist that modification. Stand in front of a mirror and tilt your hear to one side. Do not your eyes not stay upright? Of course this mechanism is switched off sometimes for astronauts and athletes. > These values are used to determine a transformation > which would place the position point and the > direction point on the z-axis and the plane of > projection into the x-y plane. This transformation > is then applied to all of the objects in the space > before applying the perspective transformation. Let me try to understand using a model eye or camera. Are you, in other words, introducing a new oriented isometric coordinate system on 3-space: origin at the center C of the eye, the z-axis running from that center out through the center of the 'pupil' P? The y-axis 'vertical', and the x-axis 'horizontal'. The retina or film F can be thought of as the translate of the xy plane distance m in the positive z-direction. This m is zoom magnification if we think of the eye as a *simplified* camera. Then a "view" or "photo" of 3-space is obtained by radial projection through C onto F. > Objects that can't be projected are culled in > `Picture::output()' The projection can be restricted to map only objects in the half-space of positive z, onto the film F. The film can be cut down to a finite part F0 of F, presumably a neighborhood of the origin. The cut-down film then sees just scenery in the positive cone on F0 with center C. Occultation is a major problem I won't explain. Also color luminosity texture shadow, reflection, transparency -- gasp. If one is to be able to tour through 3D scenes, a model of this complexity seems necessary. All this is guesswork. Is is consistent with *some* 3D graphics system? Cheers Laurent S. PS. As in photography, the center C can move far from the scenery of interest, though F0 will stay relatively close. The projection onto F then becomes parallel to the z-axis. But it seems advisable allow freedom for C to tour in all 3-space. From - Sun Apr 24 08:41:22 2005 Return-Path: Received: from web26904.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (web26904.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.146.176.93]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with SMTP id j3O6fGNK064651 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 08:41:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 17503 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Apr 2005 14:41:14 -0000 Message-ID: <20050423144114.17501.qmail@web26904.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [134.58.253.131] by web26904.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:41:14 CEST Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:41:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Peter Vanroose Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem To: Laurence Finston Cc: Larry Siebenmann , metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 08:41:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > The way I do perspective projection implies that the plane of > projection is always perpendicular to the line from > `Focus::position' to `Focus::direction', which are both `Points'. Ah, so if I understand well, you are using parallel projection? This is indeed a special case of projective projection, where the "eye" point is far away (strictly speaking: at infinity). -- Peter. From - Sun Apr 24 09:05:39 2005 Return-Path: Received: from smtp12.wanadoo.fr (smtp12.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.20]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3O75bCN076665 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:05:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1207.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 371F81C00093 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:05:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [81.48.98.200] (ATuileries-107-1-4-200.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.48.98.200]) by mwinf1207.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 6FE891C00084 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:05:36 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20050424070536458.6FE891C00084@mwinf1207.wanadoo.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Message-Id: <44324335-B48F-11D9-A095-0003931089DC@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed To: metafont@ens.fr From: Jacques Vernin Subject: Fwd: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:05:40 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:05:37 +0200 (CEST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by nef2.ens.fr id j3O75bCN076665 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.2 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,DNS_FROM_RFC_WHOIS autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Début du message réexpédié : > De: Jacques Vernin > Date: 24 avril 2005 08:09:23 GMT+02:00 > À: Larry Siebenmann > Objet: Rép : [metafont] Re: button-hole problem > > Quaesturam una petiit et sum ego factus prior. Non est respondendum ad > omnia. Neque enim uestrum quelquam fugit, cum multi pares dignitate > fiant, unus autem primum locum solus possit obtinere, non eundem esse > ordinem dignitatis et renontiationis proptera quod renuntiatio gradus > habeat, dignitas autem sit perseape eadem omnium. Sed quaestura > utriusque prope modum pari momento sortis fuit. Habuit hic lege Titia > prouinciam tacitam et quietam, tu illam qui, cum quaestores > sortiuntur, etiam adclamari solet, Ostiensiem non tam .... > > > Le 24 avr. 05, à 05:21, Larry Siebenmann a écrit : > >> >> >> Hi Laurence F. >> >> Me> For example, if the >>> projection point is on the target plane, which happens to be >>> disjoint from the circle, then the projected circle is the >>> EMPTY SET. >> >> You> Wouldn't it be a point, namely the projection point >> >> You are quite right, I boobed; as Peter Vanroose further >> explained, a cone on an empty set is not empty but the cone >> point. Unfortunately, programmers usually have to >> pay attention to degenerate cases -- they are like >> accidents waiting to happen. >> >>> occlusion of two polygons >> >> ??? whazzat? >> >> I mentioned radial projection of objects in R^3 onto >> the spherical retina of an imaginary eye. You answered: >> >>> This is interesting, but I think it may not be of >>> practical importance for 3DLDF. >> >> You can ignore it. But it is helpful to consider >> because the sphere (eye) with opposite points >> identified is a model of projective 2-space RP^2. One >> in which no particular line at infinity is has privilege >> and in which the compactness of RP^2 is obvious. It is >> natural since God gave your users spherical eyes and a >> preception of projective geometry through them. >> >>> it might be useful to just store the center of an >>> object and a transformation matrix. >> >> I favor 3-dimensional scenes which one can journey through >> with a computer. >> >>> What I do is the following: A `Focus' contains a >>> `Point' representing the position of the "camera" in >>> space >>> .... >>> `Focus::position' >> >> This would be the center C of my eye. >> >>> and another representing the direction of view. >>> .... >>> `Focus::direction' >> >> This is direction CP, where P is the center of the pupil >> of my eye. >> >>> The "up" direction is determined somehow, I don't >>> remember how, >> >> It is determined by gravity via the inner ear, I >> believe. >> >>> and can be modified by using a `real' >>> value for an angle of rotation. >> >> OK. But, my eye tends to resist that modification. >> Stand in front of a mirror and tilt your >> hear to one side. Do not your eyes not stay upright? >> Of course this mechanism is switched off sometimes >> for astronauts and athletes. >> >>> These values are used to determine a transformation >>> which would place the position point and the >>> direction point on the z-axis and the plane of >>> projection into the x-y plane. This transformation >>> is then applied to all of the objects in the space >>> before applying the perspective transformation. >> >> Let me try to understand using a model eye or camera. >> >> Are you, in other words, introducing a new oriented isometric >> coordinate system on 3-space: origin at the center C >> of the eye, the z-axis running from that center out >> through the center of the 'pupil' P? The y-axis >> 'vertical', and the x-axis 'horizontal'. >> >> The retina or film F can be thought of as the >> translate of the xy plane distance m in the positive >> z-direction. This m is zoom magnification if we think of >> the eye as a *simplified* camera. >> >> Then a "view" or "photo" of 3-space is obtained by >> radial projection through C onto F. >> >>> Objects that can't be projected are culled in >>> `Picture::output()' >> >> The projection can be restricted to map only >> objects in the half-space of positive z, onto the >> film F. The film can be cut down to a finite part >> F0 of F, presumably a neighborhood of the origin. >> The cut-down film then sees just scenery in the >> positive cone on F0 with center C. Occultation is a >> major problem I won't explain. Also color >> luminosity texture shadow, reflection, transparency >> -- gasp. >> If one is to be able to tour through 3D scenes, a >> model of this complexity seems necessary. >> >> All this is guesswork. Is is consistent with *some* >> 3D graphics system? >> >> Cheers >> >> Laurent S. >> >> PS. As in photography, the center C can move far >> from the scenery of interest, though F0 will stay >> relatively close. The projection onto F >> then becomes parallel to the z-axis. But it seems >> advisable allow freedom for C to tour >> in all 3-space. >> >> >> > Jacques Vernin > piR2 > 10, Boulevard de Brazza > 13008 Marseille > > Jacques Vernin piR2 10, Boulevard de Brazza 13008 Marseille From - Sun Apr 24 15:19:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3ODIxNp016425 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504241318.j3ODIxNp016425@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPPFi-0004VL-CI; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:21:14 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: <20050423144114.17501.qmail@web26904.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:21:14 +0200 Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Re: button-hole problem To: Martijn van Manen User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Cc: help-3dldf@gnu.org, metafont@ens.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 I wrote: > The perspective transformation is created by taking an > identity matrix and setting persp[2][2] = 0 and persp[2][3] = 1/distance > (indexing starts at 0). This is why distance may not be 0. Sorry, this should be Focus::persp.matrix[2][2] and Focus::persp.matrix[2][3]. Didn't mean to sow confusion. `persp' is a `Transform' and `matrix' is a `Matrix', which is a `typedef' for `real[4][4]'. `real' is a `typedef' for either `float' or `double', depending on how precise you want to be (currently `double' in my sources). Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 15:19:11 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3ODIxNq016425 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504241318.j3ODIxNq016425@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPOww-0001Fy-Vi; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:01:51 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: <20050423144114.17501.qmail@web26904.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:01:50 +0200 Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem To: p.vanroose@ieee.org User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Cc: Larry Siebenmann , metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > Ah, so if I understand well, you are using parallel projection? > This is indeed a special case of projective projection, where the > "eye" point is far away (strictly speaking: at infinity). I have implemented perspective projection using a `Focus' and parallel projection onto the three major planes. For example: focus f; set f with_position (-5, 5, -10) with_direction (-5, 5, 10) with_distance 10; picture p; beginfig(1); circle c; c := unit_circle scaled 2 rotated (15, 30, 60); draw c; p := current_picture; endfig with_focus f; %% perspective projection is the default. beginfig(2); output p with_projection parallel_x_y; endfig; beginfig(3); output p with_projection parallel_x_z; endfig; beginfig(4); output p with_projection parallel_z_y; endfig; Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 15:19:52 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3ODIxNs016425 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPIzb-000711-RH; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:40:12 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3NBeBH0000495035; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:40:11 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:40:11 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: "L. Nobre G." cc: liste metafont , help-3dldf Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Re: button-hole problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, L. Nobre G. wrote: > >From the experimental physicist point of view the perspective projection > of a circle on a plane is "allways" an ellipse. > But > the projection of the center of the circle is "not" the center of the > ellipse. How can this be reconciled with what Laurent S. and Peter have written? Again, in words of one syllable, if possible, please. Thanks. Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 15:20:39 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3ODIxNr016425 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504241318.j3ODIxNr016425@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPOqN-0008PS-St; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:55:03 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: <20050423140647.F2DE26EEF6@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:55:03 +0200 Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Re: button-hole problem To: Martijn van Manen User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Cc: help-3dldf@gnu.org, metafont@ens.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Martijn van Manen wrote: > Here is my eternal sorry again for not participating > a lot. I really am sorry, but I just don't have the time. No need to apologize. I know you're busy, that's why I haven't bothered you. > > What I do is the following: A `Focus' contains a `Point' representing the > > position of the "camera" in space and another representing the direction of > > view. The "up" direction is determined somehow, I don't remember how, and can > > be modified by using a `real' value for an angle of rotation. > > Here is a crucial point in my opinion. What is the "Up" direction? > I wanted very much to use 3DLDF for an article. So I did some > experiments. But I could not get it right. I tried stuff with > the focus and the distance, but to no avail. In what source file > do I find how the "Up" direction is determined? > Line whereabouts? The "up" direction is that direction, which will correspond to the direction of the positive y-axis in the projection. It's determined in the `Focus' constructor currently at line 9053 in the file `CWEB/points.web'. For simplicity, I describe only the case that the projection is performed by (in effect) placing Focus::position on the negative z-axis and using the x-y plane as the plane of projection. This is the default, and if you're using 1.2.0, this is what will happen, because I haven't made it possible to use the other axes, since it doesn't matter a bit which axis one uses. In fact, the Focus is never transformed, the transformation is applied to the objects in the space. Focus::up starts out as the point (0, 1, 0). Focus::transform is the transformation that aligns the line Focus::position -- Focus::direction with the z-axis with position at the origin and direction on the positive z-axis. If an `angle' argument is specified, up is rotated around the z-axis by this angle. Then it is multiplied by the inverse of Focus::transform. Finally, Focus::transform is shifted by (0, 0, -Focus::distance). The perspective transformation is created by taking an identity matrix and setting persp[2][2] = 0 and persp[2][3] = 1/distance (indexing starts at 0). This is why distance may not be 0. The point is that the plane of projection is specified by position and direction. I could just as easily specify direction by using position and an normal vector for the plane of projection. The way it is now, "up" can be rotated freely around the line from position to direction. If you need a better way of setting "up", let me know what you want and I'll try to implement it. I don't think this would be too difficult. > > Pascals theorem by the way roughly says that through any five points in > the plane there is a unique ellipse. > An ellipse is given by an equation > > a x2 + bxy + cy2 + d x + e y = 1 > > So if you have five points, you get five unknowns a,b,c,d,e and > five equations. So you can determine a solution. > Ofcourse, a mathematician would know say that I'm retarded. He/she > would be right, but this I think is the computational essence. Thank you. Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 15:21:44 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3ODIxNt016425 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPIvo-0006Mq-AG; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:36:16 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3NBaG30000494987; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:36:16 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:36:15 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: p.vanroose@ieee.org cc: Larry Siebenmann , metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: [metafont] button-hole problem In-Reply-To: <20050422235751.24612.qmail@web26902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20050422235751.24612.qmail@web26902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Peter Vanroose wrote: > > For example, if the projection point is on the target plane, > > which happens to be disjoint from the circle, then the projected > > circle is the EMPTY SET. > The only situation where the projection is empty, is when the > projection point is in the same plane as the circle, and the projection > plane is parallel to this plane. This is interesting. Objects that can't be projected are culled in `Picture::output()' in 3DLDF. I will have to test this case. > (Actually, in that case the projection is a line interval at infinity. > So in projective space the projection is again non-empty. And again a > conic section, now a degenerate ellipse.) Thanks again for your help. Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 15:22:37 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3ODIxNn016425 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gwdu71.gwdg.de ([134.76.8.21]) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPIq6-0005RD-OL; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:30:22 +0200 Received: from localhost by gwdu71.gwdg.de (8.11.1/1.1.29.3/16Jun03-0924AM) id j3NBUMF0000494903; Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:30:22 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gwdu71.gwdg.de: lfinsto1 owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:30:21 +0200 (MEST) From: Laurence Finston To: p.vanroose@ieee.org cc: Larry Siebenmann , metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem In-Reply-To: <20050422234555.96318.qmail@web26909.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20050422234555.96318.qmail@web26909.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Peter Vanroose wrote: > No, circles can indeed project as a parabola or a hyperbola. > Take the following example: > > - project onto a horizontal plane. What does horizontal mean in this context? The way I do perspective projection implies that the plane of projection is always perpendicular to the line from `Focus::position' to `Focus::direction', which are both `Points'. I have also implemented parallel projection onto the x-y, x-z, and z-y planes, but it isn't clear to me that the projections of circles wouldn't be ellipses, except for the cases where they are circles (which are also ellipses, of course) or straight lines (which could be termed degenerate ellipses, I suppose). > - place a circle vertically with its lowest L point on that plane. > - take as projection "eye" point P any point which is at the same > height above the plane as the highest point H of the circle. > > In this case the projection is a parabola, with its top in L and its > axis parallel to the line PH. > > If you want a hyperbola, move the eye point P a bit down (towards the > projection plane). If you want an ellipse, move P upward. > Thank you very much. I'll try this out as soon as I get a chance. Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 15:23:34 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3ODIxNo016425 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504241318.j3ODIxNo016425@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPU9z-0004OI-1j; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:35:39 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:35:38 +0200 Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Re: button-hole problem To: "L. Nobre G." User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: liste metafont , help-3dldf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:18:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 L. Nobre G. wrote: > The projection of a circle will not be an ellipse *only* when the circle > touches (parabola) or crosses (hyperbola) the plan, parallel to > the projection plan, containing Focus::position. Everything on this plan > projects at infinty. This kind of projection is not computable. Avoid it. > Forget it. Thanks, that's very clear. > Now, the center of the projected ellipse is the projection of the circle's > center *only* when the circle is parallel to the projection plan and when > the circle's center is on the line --Focus::position--Focus::direction--. So is a perspective projection of a conic section always a conic section? I suppose it would be too good to be true if any transformation of a conic section would also be a conic section, but are there one or more classes of transformations for which this is true? Shearing (an affine transformation) can make an ellipse non-elliptical, but since it remains a closed curve, it is neither a parabola or a hyperbola. Is there a name for this kind of curve? And is there a way of finding out _what_ curve the projection the projection of a conic section is, i.e., finding an implicit or parametric equation to describe it? It's no problem to transform it to a convenient position and then put it back where it was. Have you solved these problems in FEATPOST? Thank you very much again for all your help. Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 17:14:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3OFDvpS050385 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:13:57 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504241513.j3OFDvpS050385@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPio0-0002ep-0M; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:13:56 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: <200504240321.j3O3LPu66798@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:13:55 +0200 Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: Larry Siebenmann User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: metafont@ens.fr, peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:13:57 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > Unfortunately, programmers usually have to > pay attention to degenerate cases -- they are like > accidents waiting to happen. I get some pleasure out of it. It appeals to my sense of pedantry. > > > occlusion of two polygons > > ??? whazzat? I mean handling the case where the projection of one polygon occludes the projection of another, in whole or in part, given a particular focus. I have implemented this for two polygons, as shown in a sequence of ten images at the top of the GNU 3DLDF website: http://www.gnu.org/software/3dldf/LDF.html It works here, however there are a couple of problems, as you can see from the images I used as examples for `cnepspng'. By the way, I discovered some old code where I used the `-T' option to `dvips', so perhaps it won't be necessary to use `mogrify', after all. My idea was to divide the 3D objects in space so that the resulting objects no longer intersect. This works to a certain extent. When outputting a `Picture', the objects on it can be sorted in three different ways: by the maximum z-value of the `Points' belonging to that object, the minimum z-value, or the mean of these two values. The z-value is that of the projection of the `Point', which results from multiplying the world coordinates by the transformation matrix representing the perspective transformation. This value is not output to the file of MetaPost code, since a `Point' projected onto the x-y plane doesn't have a z-value, and MP has two-dimensional `pairs', not three-dimensional `Points', but it is proportional to the distance of the `Point' to `Focus::position'. In fact, I don't divide the z-value by the w-coordinate after the transformation, as I do for the x and y-coordinates. I programmed this quite a long time ago and I don't remember how it works, but when I recently tried to perform this division, the z-coordinate always became 0 (actually, its absolute value always became < Point::epsilon). This division isn't necessary, anyway, since all I need are the relative distances of the `Points' from Focus::position. However, the problem is that while the objects may not intersect, their projections might, and using the maximum, minimum, or mean z-values doesn't provide enough information for performing occlusion correctly. In addition, the loops I use for comparing the objects on a `Picture' are somewhat complicated, and I've probably made a couple of mistakes somewhere. Nobre has explained that in FEATPOST, he uses the pyramids whose bases are the polygons and whose points are his equivalent of Focus::position for occlusion. I believe the intersections of these polygons can be used to determine which one is in front, but I'm still trying to figure this out. > You can ignore it. But it is helpful to consider > because the sphere (eye) with opposite points > identified is a model of projective 2-space RP^2. One > in which no particular line at infinity is has privilege > and in which the compactness of RP^2 is obvious. It is > natural since God gave your users spherical eyes and a > preception of projective geometry through them. Okay, I'll bear this in mind. > > it might be useful to just store the center of an > > object and a transformation matrix. > > I favor 3-dimensional scenes which one can journey through > with a computer. Of course, `Points', `Paths', or whatever would need to be generated when they are needed for a given operation, like showing or outputting. > > The "up" direction is determined somehow, I don't > > remember how, > > It is determined by gravity via the inner ear, I > believe. For a person, yes, but you can rotate a camera about the axis from the aperture to the focus (or whatever it's called), it doesn't care. > Of course this mechanism is switched off sometimes > for astronauts and athletes. In traditional perspective drawing, one usually has a ground plane. There is no concept of a ground plane when using transformation matrices. One can use the x-z plane if one wants to, but there's no need to. This is one reason why the results of setting setting Focuses in 3DLDF might be counter-intuitive. > Let me try to understand using a model eye or camera. > Are you, in other words, introducing a new oriented isometric > coordinate system on 3-space: origin at the center C > of the eye, the z-axis running from that center out > through the center of the 'pupil' P? The y-axis > 'vertical', and the x-axis 'horizontal'. Yes. The C++ code makes it possible to use different axes, but since the results are completely equivalent, I haven't made it possible to access this functionality interactively (using 1.2.0). Your description of the technique is entirely correct. > Occultation is a > major problem I won't explain. To the best of my knowledge, the standard approaches to occultation use raster information. There are good reasons for this. They are computationally expensive but straightforward. My approach is to divide objects and their projections until they don't intersect. This requires being able to find their intersections. To my dismay, I've discovered that intersection theory is a non-trivial branch of mathematics, so I may not be able to implement a complete solution to this problem for all types of curves. > Also color > luminosity texture shadow, reflection, transparency > -- gasp. I've made a start on luminosity and transparency, which are two sides of the same coin, and reflection. Shadows can be implemented as a form of projection, or by using raster-based rendering techniques. So I'm in no danger of running out of things to do. > If one is to be able to tour through 3D scenes, a > model of this complexity seems necessary. Indeed. As one of the immutable laws of programming states: "There is no free lunch". > All this is guesswork. Is is consistent with *some* > 3D graphics system? Yes, as far as I know, all of them. You have stated the problems very clearly and accurately, and any canned solutions would be very welcome. Thanks again. Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 17:43:49 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3OFhjb0059037 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:43:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504241543.j3OFhjb0059037@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPjGl-0007R1-Rf; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:43:39 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:43:39 +0200 Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Re: button-hole problem To: "L. Nobre G." User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: liste metafont , help-3dldf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:43:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 ------------------- > On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Laurence Finston wrote: > > Shearing (an affine transformation) > > can make an ellipse non-elliptical, but since it remains a closed curve, it is > > neither a parabola or a hyperbola. Is there a name for this kind of curve? > > Ellipse. Point taken. I'll have to try this and see what it looks like. I imagined it differently. > > And is there a way of finding out _what_ curve the projection the projection > > of a conic section is, i.e., finding an implicit or parametric equation to > > describe it? > > Of course: project six points and solve ax2+by2+cxy+dx+ey+f=0. I'll have to look up how to do this. I think there's a way to do it with matrices. > But be "carefull" out there I will. Those stellated icosahedra have sharp points. Thanks. Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 19:28:28 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3OHSP7T091438 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:28:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3OHSLK94876; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:28:21 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:28:21 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504241728.j3OHSLK94876@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: laurent@math.toronto.edu, lfinsto1@gwdg.de, metafont@ens.fr, peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: button-hole problem X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:28:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi Peter, and all, Concerning radial projection in R^3 from a finite point X to a finite plane P not containing X, you (Sat, 23 Apr 2005) discussed the image of a circle C in R^3 that is in the plane P' parallel to P and containing X. > The only situation where the projection is empty, is when the > projection point is in the same plane as the circle, and the projection > plane is parallel to this plane. > ... > (Actually, in that case the projection is a line interval at infinity. > So in projective space the projection is again non-empty. And again a > conic section, now a degenerate ellipse.) Almost right. Let L be the line at infinity of the plane P (or P'). The projection of C always lies in L. But: -- the projection of C is a (closed) interval in L only if the projection center X lies outside the circle C in plane P'. -- the projection of C is the whole line L at infinity if the projection center X lies *inside or on* the circle C in plane P'. Geometers like to avoid this sort of hair splitting by discussing generic cases only. Whether programmers can afford to do likewise is a good question. Cheers Laurent S. From - Sun Apr 24 19:29:17 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3OHTCK8091618 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:29:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3OHT7d94878; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:29:07 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:29:07 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504241729.j3OHT7d94878@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: laurent@math.toronto.edu, lfinsto1@gwdg.de, metafont@ens.fr, nobre@lince.cii.fc.ul.pt, peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: button-hole problem X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:29:13 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi Laurence F., and Luiz Laurence wrote: [Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:40:11 +0200 (MEST)] > On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, L. Nobre G. wrote: > >> >From the experimental physicist point of view the perspective projection >> of a circle on a plane is "allways" an ellipse. >> But >> the projection of the center of the circle is "not" the center of the >> ellipse. > >How can this be reconciled with what Laurent S. and Peter have written? >Again, in words of one syllable, if possible, please. No way! Now a polysyllabic clarification. Hyperbolic images are common visible and computable. Hundreds of millions of automobilists including most physicists see such hyperbolas on the road when using their high beam headlights at night. Hundreds of millions of citizens see such hyperbolas on the wall of a room at night above a round lampshade. But the statement about centers is OK. Cheers Laurent S. From - Sun Apr 24 19:32:24 2005 Return-Path: Received: from coxeter.math.toronto.edu (coxeter.math.toronto.edu [128.100.68.3]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3OHWHDY092711 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:32:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from laurent@localhost) by coxeter.math.toronto.edu (AIX5.2/8.11.6p2/8.11.0/UTMath 1.0) id j3OHWEe94882; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:32:14 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:32:14 -0400 From: Larry Siebenmann Message-Id: <200504241732.j3OHWEe94882@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> To: laurent@math.toronto.edu, lfinsto1@gwdg.de, metafont@ens.fr Subject: Re: button-hole problem X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:32:18 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi Laurence F. You wrote: > So is a perspective projection of a conic section always a conic > section? I don't know now how the greeks liked to prove this this. But an algebraic proof valid in all dimensions is essentially this: Lemma. If A:R^n --> R^n is a non-degenerate R-linear map of vector spaces and q:R^n --> R is a homogeneous quadratic function, then the composition qA: :R^n --> R is a homogeneous quadratic function. Maybe someone will elaborate... Cheers Laurent S. From - Sun Apr 24 19:38:00 2005 Return-Path: Received: from relay-bv.club-internet.fr (relay-bv.club-internet.fr [194.158.96.102]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3OHbvZl094166 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:37:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Nicolas.Educnat (f03m-4-79.d1.club-internet.fr [212.194.51.79]) by relay-bv.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9102425611 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:37:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nicolas.educnat (IDENT:100@Nicolas.Educnat [192.168.0.1]) by Nicolas.Educnat (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j3OHelkY012064; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:40:47 +0200 Message-ID: <426BDA1E.1010708@nicolas.educnat> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:40:46 +0200 From: tarass@club-internet.fr User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, fr-fr, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: metafont@ens.fr Subject: Je veux me =?ISO-8859-15?Q?d=E9sinscrire?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:37:57 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.0 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE, DNS_FROM_RFC_POST,FORGED_RCVD_HELO,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Je veux me désisncrire et ça ne marche pas quand j'envoie un mais avec unsubscribe et mon email à sympa@ens.fr Nicolas. -- Powered .~. by Linux /V\ ------ // \\ solutions for /( )\ smart penguins ^`~'^ From - Sun Apr 24 22:08:42 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3OK8ciJ043050 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:08:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504242008.j3OK8ciJ043050@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPnOu-0001U5-Uj; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:08:20 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:08:20 +0200 Subject: Re: [help-3dldf] Fwd: Re: button-hole problem To: "L. Nobre G." User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Cc: help-3dldf@gnu.org, metafont@ens.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:08:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > Take, for example, two parallel triangles. > > A B > /\ /\ > / \/ \ > / /\ \ > / C/__\___\D > /________\ > E F > > If AEF is in front of BCD, then > > A B > /\ /\ > / \/g \ > / \ \ > / \h__\D > /________\ > E F > > the plan containing A, F and Focus::position has cut BCD in two parts. > Cgh is occluded and BghD is not. Thanks for the explanation. The case I'm having difficulty with is where the triangles lie in a plane parallel to the x-z plane, the line Focus::position -- Focus::direction also lies in a plane parallel to the x-z plane, and the triangles as seen from above look something like this, but rotated about plus or minus 75°: ______ | /| | / | | / | | A / | | / B | | / | | / | I / | | / | |/_____| I've implemented routines for "self-decomposition" of polygons, but I'm afraid that no matter how many pieces I break them into, simply sorting by their max-z, min-z, or mean-z values will fail for some of them. I may try projecting a ray from Focus::position through each of the vertices and testing the distance from Focus::position to the first intersection point of each of the polygons. I think this will work for convex polygons. I don't know what to do about conic sections yet. Thanks. Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 22:28:07 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3OKS2tD049527 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:28:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504242028.j3OKS2tD049527@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPnhx-00058z-Fb; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:28:01 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: <200504241728.j3OHSLK94876@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:28:01 +0200 Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: Larry Siebenmann User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: metafont@ens.fr, peter_vanroose@yahoo.co.uk, help-3dldf@gnu.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:28:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Larry Siebenmann wrote: > Geometers like to avoid this sort of hair splitting by discussing > generic cases only. > > Whether programmers can afford to do likewise is a good question. They cannot. I have occasionally met with an attitude among mathematicians and physicists, that once they'd proven that a solution existed, they had solved the problem, upon which they lost interest. From my point of view, that's just the beginning. I have almost never implemented any non-trivial feature in any program without having to revise my theory. Sometimes, I've even had to revise my views about what was trivial and what wasn't. Incidentally, the balance between the theoretical and the practical is one of the things I admire most about Knuth's work. Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 22:39:52 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3OKdkHS052812 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:39:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504242039.j3OKdkHS052812@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPntJ-0006mP-Le; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:39:45 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: <200504241730.j3OHUe794880@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:39:45 +0200 Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: Larry Siebenmann User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:39:46 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > Minor disagreement about coordinatization > for eye or camera or screen display: > > My choice of the film plane F as R x R x {m}, and the projection > center always at the origin (0,0,0) seems more convenient since > zooming is *less awkward* than when you choose the center at > (0,0,-m). In "my" method (actually, it's from one of the books I've used, probably Huw Jones, _Computer Graphics Through Key Mathematics_, or perhaps from a book by Stephen Harrington, whose title I've forgotten), the plane of projection is transformed to the x-y plane, so I can just write the x and y values of the "projective coordinates" (as I call them) to the MetaPost output. > > Recall that m > 0 is my zoom factor. This is true of "my" method as well. I'm not arguing with you. I have no particular emotional attachment to the method I use. If it turns out to be advantageous to change it, I'd be quite happy to do so. I don't think it would be too difficult. If not, I might as well leave it as it is. > PS. When you quote from another list please > identify the speaker and date. Okay. Thanks. Laurence From - Sun Apr 24 22:48:43 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3OKmauS055547 for ; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:48:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504242048.j3OKmauS055547@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DPo1r-00006m-IW; Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:48:35 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: <200504241732.j3OHWEe94882@coxeter.math.toronto.edu> Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:48:35 +0200 Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: Larry Siebenmann User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: laurent@math.toronto.edu, metafont@ens.fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:48:36 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > > So is a perspective projection of a conic section always a conic > > section? > > I don't know now how the greeks liked to prove this this. But an > algebraic proof valid in all dimensions is essentially this: > > Lemma. If A:R^n --> R^n is a non-degenerate R-linear map of vector > spaces and q:R^n --> R is a homogeneous quadratic function, then > the composition qA: :R^n --> R is a homogeneous quadratic function. > > Maybe someone will elaborate... I hope so, because I don't understand it. Actually, I have a vague idea about vector spaces and maps (if that's the English term for _Abbildungen_). Did the Greeks invent (or discover, if you prefer) projective geometry? I thought it was either Descartes, or followed Descartes. Doesn't one need a coordinate system for projections? Thanks. Laurence From - Mon Apr 25 17:27:16 2005 Return-Path: Received: from web26908.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (web26908.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.146.176.97]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with SMTP id j3PFRCne016931 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:27:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 52324 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Apr 2005 15:27:11 -0000 Message-ID: <20050425152711.52322.qmail@web26908.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.78.168.253] by web26908.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:27:11 CEST Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:27:11 +0200 (CEST) From: Peter Vanroose Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: Larry Siebenmann , metafont@ens.fr In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:27:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 --- Larry Siebenmann wrote: > > in that case the projection is a line interval at infinity. > > Almost right. > ... > -- the projection of C is the whole line L at infinity if the > projection center X lies *inside or on* the circle C in plane P'. Agreed. -- Peter. From - Mon Apr 25 17:47:25 2005 Return-Path: Received: from web26908.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (web26908.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.146.176.97]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with SMTP id j3PFlLUN024551 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:47:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 55811 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Apr 2005 15:47:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20050425154721.55809.qmail@web26908.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.78.168.253] by web26908.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:47:21 CEST Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:47:21 +0200 (CEST) From: Peter Vanroose Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: metafont@ens.fr In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:47:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > So is a perspective projection of a conic section always a conic > section? Yes. Otherwise stated, "being a conic section" is a projective invariant. This means: projecting a circle, ellipse, hyperbola, or parabola, no matter how, always gives either a circle or an ellipse or a hyperbola or a parabola. (Well, I could have dropped "circle" since cicles are ellipses.) On the other hand, the *centre* of a circle or an ellipse is *not* a projective invariant (it's an affine invariant), so the centre is not necessarily projected onto the centre of the projection. Take again my example with the vertical circle on the horizontal projection plane. Let's have it more concrete: the horizontal projection plane is the plane Z=0, the circle lies in the plane X=0, with centre (0,0,2) and radius 2 (so it touches the projection plane in (0,0,0)), and the eye point is (-3,0,5). The projection is an ellipse [guaranteed !] with main axis Y=Z=0 [since it's a symmetry axis of the projection], with top points (0,0,0) and (12,0,0) [= projection of (0,0,4)], so the centre is (6,0,0), but the projection of the circle's centre (0,0,2) is the point (2,0,0): still on the main axis, but not in the middle. Projections don't preserve distances nor distance fractions, so they in general don't preserve "middle of a line segment", so in particular they don't preserve "centre of an ellipse". -- Peter. From - Mon Apr 25 21:17:56 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3PJHrjZ004366 for ; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:17:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504251917.j3PJHrjZ004366@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DQ95K-0001ma-S8; Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:17:34 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: <20050425154721.55809.qmail@web26908.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:17:34 +0200 Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem To: p.vanroose@ieee.org User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:17:53 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Peter Vanroose wrote: > > So is a perspective projection of a conic section always a conic > > section? > > Yes. > Otherwise stated, "being a conic section" is a projective invariant. Thank you. This is very handy and makes me think that it would definitely be worthwhile to pursue this tack. Am I right in assuming that "projectively invariant" implies that this characteristic of conic sections is invariant for any projection whatsoever, such as projection onto a sphere or a cylinder? It seems to me that it ought to be possible to construct a transformation for which this condition would not hold. If this is true, does it imply that not all transformations are projections? If this is so, are projections a subset of transformations? Or am I comparing apples and oranges? Please excuse me if these are naive questions. > On the other hand, the *centre* of a circle or an ellipse is *not* a > projective invariant (it's an affine invariant), so the centre is not > necessarily projected onto the centre of the projection. [...] > Projections don't preserve distances nor distance fractions, so they in > general don't preserve "middle of a line segment", so in particular > they don't preserve "centre of an ellipse". I don't consider these to be problems. I may not need the centers of the projections, and previous remarks in this discussion have indicated that it's possible to find the centers, foci, etc., if needed. However, I'm still a bit at sea about the problem of finding equations (implicit and/or parametric) for the projections and finding the intersections of conic sections. I realize it's up to me to learn this material, I'm just finding it extremely difficult. It seems like a very long road. Thank you very much for your help. Laurence From - Tue Apr 26 08:39:58 2005 Return-Path: Received: from web26907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (web26907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.146.176.96]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with SMTP id j3Q6drr2021348 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:39:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 17268 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Apr 2005 06:39:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20050426063952.17266.qmail@web26907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.78.168.253] by web26907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:39:52 CEST Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:39:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Peter Vanroose Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: Laurence Finston Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:39:55 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > Am I right in assuming that "projectively invariant" implies > that this characteristic of conic sections is invariant for any > projection whatsoever, such as projection onto a sphere or a cylinder? No. By "projection" I mean "projection of planar objects onto a plane". > It seems to me that it ought to be possible to construct a > transformation for which this condition would not hold. Yes, that's right. > If this is true, does it imply that not all transformations are > projections? If this is so, are projections a subset > of transformations? Certainly. But projections are the most general transformations that are guaranteed to transform straight lines into straight lines. -- Peter. From - Tue Apr 26 21:23:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailhost.uark.edu (mail.uark.edu [130.184.5.66]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3QJNf9O020478 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:23:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mathfolk.uark.edu ([130.184.197.23]) by mailhost.uark.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTPSA id <0IFK008XKJ7CJG@mailhost.uark.edu> for metafont@ens.fr; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:23:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:23:44 -0500 From: Dan Luecking Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem In-reply-to: <200504251917.j3PJHrjZ004366@nef2.ens.fr> To: metafont@ens.fr Message-id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050426131150.01c73c88@mail.uark.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20050425154721.55809.qmail@web26908.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <200504251917.j3PJHrjZ004366@nef2.ens.fr> X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:23:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 At 02:17 PM 4/25/2005, you wrote: >However, I'm still a bit at sea about the problem of finding equations >(implicit and/or parametric) for the projections You have not made it clear what the input data is (i.e., how a particular conic section is to be described). Perhaps you can get something out of the following: A conic section is a plane figure, so I will assume you have such figure in some plane P_0. Now you want to project it through a focal point F onto another plane P_1. One can rotate, translate and scale the 3d coordinates so that the initial plane P_0 is taken to the xy-plane and the focal point F is taken to (0,0,1). This transforms the conic section in P_0 to one in the xy-plane with some formula Q(x,y) = 0, where Q is quadratic function in x and y. (And the target plane P_1 has been transformed to some new plane P_2.) Projection involves taking all possible lines containing (0,0,1) that pass through points of the conic section and finding where they intersect the transformed target plane P_2. The set of all such lines form a surface of which the equation is (1-z)^2 Q(x/(1-z), y/(1-z)) = 0. This is a quardatic function in x, y and z. If Q(x,y) can be explicitly found, so can this surface. The projected conic section is the intesection of this surface with P_2. This could be found using the equation for P_2 to replace one of the variables in the above surface equation. Or one could transform coordinates again so that P_2 coincides with the xy-plane and the above surface formula becomes some new formula R(x,y,z) = 0. The new conic section has equation R(x,y,0) = 0. Now reverse all previous transformations to get the new conic. For example, suppose the original focus is already (0,0,1) and the initial plane P_0 is the xy-plane. Suppose the conic is the circle center at (1,0) with radius 1: x^2 - 2x + y^2 = 0 Suppose we want to project this to the plane P_1 which is perpendicular to the x-axis at x=2. The projection surface is then x^2 - 2x(1 - z) + y^2 = 0 We can get the intersection of this surface with P_1 by putting using the equation of P_1 directly, I.e., put x=2 in the equation of the above surface to get 4 - 4(1 - z) + y^2 = 0 i.e., z = -y^2/4. This (along with the equation of the plane x=2) specifies the projected conic section. Notice that this projection of a circle is a parabola. >and finding the intersections >of conic sections. I guess here you mean solving two simultaneous equations, each of which is a quadratic in x and y. I'm sure there are well know numerical recipes for that sort of thing. I don't believe there are any directly usable formulas for the intersection points. Dan Daniel H. Luecking Department of Mathematical Sciences University of Arkansas "Be kind. Every person you meet is fighting a hard battle." - Anon. From - Tue Apr 26 23:41:26 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3QLfKkS064749 for ; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:41:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504262141.j3QLfKkS064749@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DQXnt-0000w1-J3; Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:41:13 +0200 From: "Laurence Finston" In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050426131150.01c73c88@mail.uark.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:41:13 +0200 Subject: Re: [metafont] Re: button-hole problem To: Dan Luecking User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:41:20 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 From: Dan Luecking ------------------- > At 02:17 PM 4/25/2005, you wrote: > >However, I'm still a bit at sea about the problem of finding equations > >(implicit and/or parametric) for the projections > > You have not made it clear what the input data is (i.e., how a particular > conic section is to be described). In order to explain this, I must explain a little about the C++ implementation of the GNU 3DLDF interpreter. Most data types in the 3DLDF language correspond to classes in the C++ code, e.g., `point' corresponds to `class Point', `path' to `class Path', etc. `class Ellipse' is derived from `class Path', so an `ellipse' is a kind of `path'. `Paths' contain a `vector' and a `vector' for the connectors. The only connectors that currently make sense in 3DLDF are `..', `...', `--', and `---'. It doesn't make sense to implement `tension' until I've made more progress on `class Nurb'. In addition to the vectors, `Ellipses' contain the following data members: Point focus0 Point focus1 real linear_eccentricity real numerical_eccentricity real axis_h real axis_v Declarations in 3DLDF are analogous to those in Metafont, so the result of the declaration ellipse e; is an "unknown ellipse". `ellipses' can be "made known" by assigning from `unit_ellipse', which is a predefined `ellipse variable', or by using a `set' command, of which this is the syntax: set_command: SET ellipse_variable with_center_optional with_axis_h_optional with_axis_v_optional with_point_count_optional with_normal_optional So if I set `e' as follows: set e with_point_count 32; it will have its center at the origin, its horizontal and vertical axes will both be 1.0, it will have 32 points, and it's normal will be (0, 1, 0). It's foci, linear eccentricity and numerical eccentricity will be calculated by the function `Ellipse::set()', which is called in the action for this parser rule. The `Ellipse' constructors and setting functions use the parametric equation for an ellipse to find the desired numbered of points in the x-z plane, using the origin as the center. Subsequently, the `Ellipse', i.e., the center, foci, and the points representing the perimeter, are rotated about the x, y, and z-axes, in that order, by the amounts specified by `real' arguments to the function, if any of them is non-null. Unlike the `set_command', the `Ellipse' constructors and setting functions do not take a `Point' argument for a normal vector yet, so this information must be extracted from the normal `Point' used in the `set' rule, if any. Incidentally, I use the explicit equation (correct term?) for the ellipse for finding the intersection of an ellipse with a line, i.e., $x^2/a^2 + y^2/b^2 = 1$ where $a$ is half the horizontal axis and $b$ is half the vertical axis, so one representation doesn't seem to be enough for all purposes. Each of the `Points' pointed to by a pointer on the `vector Path::points' has its own `transform' data element, of type `class Transform'. I've been thinking about changing this, but I think it would be very handy to be able to transform the individual `Points' on `ellipses', `circles', `polygons', etc., rather than only being able to transform the whole object at once. I may replace `Transform Point::transform' with `Transform* Point::transform', and only allocate memory for a `Transform' when needed, but making this change will require great care. > Perhaps you can get something out of the > following: It's very helpful, thank you very much. > > >and finding the intersections > >of conic sections. > > I guess here you mean solving two simultaneous equations, each of which is > a quadratic in x and y. Yes. > I'm sure there are well know numerical recipes for > that sort of thing. I don't believe there are any directly usable formulas > for the intersection points. I was afraid of that. I currently use binary search to find the intersections of two `Ellipses', but it's a bit slow. I've implemented an algebraic solution for two `Circles', since this is so easy. Martijn van Manen has given me some material about finding the intersections of two ellipes algebraically, but he uses some mathematical concepts that I don't understand. I'm working on it. Thanks again, as always, for your help. Laurence From - Wed Apr 27 11:16:06 2005 Return-Path: Received: from web26901.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (web26901.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.146.176.90]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with SMTP id j3R9G25h068098 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:16:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 33023 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Apr 2005 09:16:01 -0000 Message-ID: <20050427091601.33021.qmail@web26901.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.78.168.253] by web26901.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:16:01 CEST Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:16:01 +0200 (CEST) From: Peter Vanroose Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: Laurence Finston Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <200504262141.j3QLfKkS064749@nef2.ens.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:16:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 --- Laurence Finston wrote: > Martijn van Manen has given me some material about finding the > intersections of two ellipes algebraically, but he uses some > mathematical concepts that I don't understand. Let me try to explain these concepts in a few words: An ellipse (or actually any conic section) in the XY plane has an equation Q(x,y)=0 where Q is a quadratic expression in x and y. Suppose the two ellipses are given by the equations Q1(x,y)=0 and Q2(x,y)=0. Any linear combination of Q1 and Q2 is still quadratic, hence represents an (other) conic section. For example: Q3(x,y) := 3 * Q1(x,y) - 7 * Q2(x,y) = 0. Interestingly, any linear combination of Q1 and Q2 also passes through the four intersection points of Q1=0 and Q2=0. So, in order to find those intersection points, one may as well try to intersect any two linear combinations of Q1 and Q2. Now from those linear combinations Q3:=k*Q1+l*Q2, there are three choices for (k,l) such that Q3 is degenerate. This means that Q3(x,y) can be written as the product of two linear factors: Q3(x,y) = (a*x+b*y+c)*(d*x+e*y+f) for some numbers a,b,c,d,e,f. Geometrically, this means that Q3=0 is actually "two straight lines", hence the term "degenerate". Now the intersection problem reduces to find two of those three degenerate conic sections amongst k*Q1+l*Q2=0. Fortunately, there is an algebraic expression for verifying that a quadratic equation is the product of two linear factors (similar to the discriminant formula for solving quadratic equations in one unknown). Hence two pairs of numbers (k1,l1) and (k2,l2) can be found relatively easily, which gives us two degenerate conic sections Q3:=k1*Q1+l1*Q2 and Q4:=k2*Q1+l2*Q2. Suppose Q3=L1*L2 and Q4=L3*L4, where L1,L2,L3,L4 are linear (i.e., L1=0 is a straight line etc.) The intersection of Q1 and Q2 equals the intersection of Q3 and Q4, which are the four points L1^L3, L1^L4, L2^L3 and L2^L4, where "^" stands for the intersection point of the two lines. Intersecting lines is of course easy. Note that the numbers k and l might be complex numbers. This is e.g. the case when intersecting two circles. B.t.w., all circles pass through the two points (at infinity) with direction x=1,y=j and x=1,y=-j. Hence, when intersecting two circles, one of the component lines L1 will be the line at infinity, and there will be at most two "real" intersection points. -- Peter. From - Wed Apr 27 11:22:26 2005 Return-Path: Received: from web26903.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (web26903.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.146.176.92]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with SMTP id j3R9MLuM070894 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:22:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 34355 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Apr 2005 09:22:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20050427092221.34353.qmail@web26903.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.78.168.253] by web26903.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:22:20 CEST Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:22:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Peter Vanroose Reply-To: p.vanroose@ieee.org Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: Laurence Finston Cc: liste metafont , help-3dldf In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:22:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DNS_FROM_RFC_ABUSE autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 > Shearing (an affine transformation) can make an ellipse non-elliptical No, this is impossible. A sheared ellipse is always an ellipse. -- Peter. From - Thu Apr 28 18:00:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from post-22.mail.nl.demon.net (post-22.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.192]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3SG0lkR024809 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:00:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boo.demon.nl ([82.161.175.147]:32841 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by post-22.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DRBRT-000Ff2-0R; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:00:43 +0000 Message-ID: <42710809.3040102@elvenkind.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:58:01 +0200 From: Taco Hoekwater User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (X11/20050215) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.text.tex To: metapost@tug.org, ntg-context@ntg.nl, metafont@ens.fr, tex-implementors@tug.org Subject: MetaPost 0.9 announcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:00:51 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 The MetaPost team is happy to announce a new release of MetaPost: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MetaPost 0.9 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The sources and a win32 package can be downloaded immediately from http://sarovar.org/projects/metapost/ The source package should compile normally on all systems that are capable of compiling a modern web2c-based TeX distribution. The win32 package is intended for fptex or a similar web2c-based installation, and has been tested only with TeXLive 2003. These executables will *not* work for miktex, sorry. Of course, we welcome any comments (either good or bad) that you may have. Simply replying to this message is fine, but see the bottom of this message for a more formal way to report bugs and feature requests. For those of you who have noted the large gap between 0.641 and 0.9: We have deliberately chosen to step over some minor version numbers, such that the first major release by the current team (this release is planned for the autumn of 2005) can become version 1.0 without causing additional confusion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- What is new in version 0.9: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. There is a new internal quantity called mpversion that reports the current metapost version, and the version information is also written to the PostScript file. 2. The LaTeX sources of the mpman, mpintro, and mpgraph manuals have become part of the distribution package. 3. TEX.mp now has TeX format support through a pair of macros called TEXPRE() and TEXPOST(). This llows you to process the contents of the TEX() macro with, for example, LaTeX (instead of plain TeX). An example is given in the manual. 4. metapost now writes a %%HiReSBoundingBox comment 5. The EPS output no longer contains actual spaces within PostScript strings as for example output by label("a space"), but their octal escape (\040) instead. 6. The EPS output now also has a %%BeginProlog DSC comment as well as %%EndProlog 7. The comments in the Web source have been changed to point out that on modern machines, acquiring the random seed has actually become a system-dependant operation (a granularity of whole seconds is not small enough on new machines). 8. The 'newer' command now accepts more than 2 arguments, testing each of the files in turn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bugfixes in version 0.9: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Documentation improvements: all known errata and typos have been removed, better explanations of e.g. dash patterns and dotlabel have been provided, and a number of omissions has been rectified. 2. The BoundingBox was not computed correctly when a filldraw command with a noticeable pen size was used at the edge of the picture. 3. Paths starting with degenerate constructions like (0,0)--(0,0)--(0,0) could overflow memory. 4. The PostScript output could accidentally contain 8-bit characters within PostScript strings in previous versions because a test was shared between terminal printing and PostScript printing. 5. A bug has been found in the assignment of serial numbers to independant variables in metafont 2.71828. This bug affected MP as well, and the same patch has been applied. 6. The turningnumber was sometimes wrong in unexpected ways. The new implementation is still sometimes wrong (when there are strange path segments involved), but in a much more predictable way: the new code always draws straight lines between the actual points, and calculates the turningnumber based on that path instead of the actual path. The effect is that cusps and loops within segments are now completely ignored. A more thorough fix of turningnumber is planned for the next release. 7. There was an 'off by one' error in dvitomp wrt. the interpretation of virtual fonts. 8. mpto uses a new TeX macro for the generation of labels, making it more robust wrt. strange user code within the actual label text. 9. A missing colon in boxes.mp has been added 10. A missing save in mfplain.mp has been added 11. The generisize in boxes.mp has been fixed so that it now accepts [[ as a valid variable name ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Legal notice / license / bug reports ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MetaPost is a system for producing graphics developed by John Hobby at AT&T, based on Donald Knuth's Metafont. The MetaPost home page is http://tug.org/metapost. MetaPost and related programs are in the public domain. The MetaPost development project is currently hosted at Sarovar, http://www.sarovar.org/projects/metapost; please report bugs and request enhancements through there if possible. Alternatively, you can reach us through the mailing list as well. (Please do not send bug reports or feature requests directly to Dr. Hobby any more) Have fun! Taco Hoekwater, for the MetaPost team, April 28, 2005 From - Thu Apr 28 23:08:13 2005 Return-Path: Received: from macker.loria.fr (macker.loria.fr [152.81.1.70]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3SL86DV027069 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:08:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost.loria.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58794F074; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:08:04 +0200 (CEST) X-Amavix: Anti-virus check done by ClamAV X-Amavix: Scanned by Amavix Received: from bar.loria.fr (bar.loria.fr [152.81.2.13]) by macker.loria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C874F05F; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:08:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from roegel@localhost) by bar.loria.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/8.9.3-client/JCG) id XAA05789; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:08:03 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:08:03 +0200 From: Denis Roegel To: metafont@ens.fr Cc: Denis Roegel Subject: searching a metapost package Message-ID: <20050428230803.A5350@bar.loria.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.1i X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:08:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Hi, a few months ago, someone made a metapost package which had an interesting key/value option mechanism, but I can't remember which package it was. Could someone help me locate this package, maybe its author if he/she is reading this? Sorry for this very vague question... Thanks, Denis From - Thu Apr 28 23:43:37 2005 Return-Path: Received: from mailer.gwdg.de (mailer.gwdg.de [134.76.10.26]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3SLhWCe038931 for ; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:43:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200504282143.j3SLhWCe038931@nef2.ens.fr> Received: from mailbox.gwdg.de ([134.76.10.21] helo=gwdg.de) by mailer.gwdg.de with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DRGn2-0006Zm-Iy; Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:43:20 +0200 Cc: metafont@ens.fr, help-3dldf@gnu.org Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:43:20 +0200 Subject: Re: button-hole problem To: p.vanroose@ieee.org In-Reply-To: <20050427091601.33021.qmail@web26901.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.3+G (Webmail for Roxen) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: lfinsto1[134.76.139.103] From: "Laurence Finston" X-Virus-Scanned: (clean) by exiscan+sophie X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:43:32 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER, MSGID_FROM_MTA_ID autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 Peter Vanroose wrote: > Let me try to explain these concepts in a few words: [...] Thank you for your very clear explanation. It was very interesting, and I feel I'm closer to being able to implement a solution. There are still a few tricky bits I don't understand, but you've done everything short of presenting me finished code on a silver platter. I'm currently working on rewriting the manual, so it will be awhile before I start working on conic sections. Many thanks to all of you who have answered my questions. Needless to say, if anyone has anything more to say on the subject, I would be very interested to hear it. Laurence From - Fri Apr 29 08:16:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by nef2.ens.fr (8.13.2/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id j3T6Fs06003912 for ; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:15:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DROhR-0001yu-R8 for metafont@ens.fr; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:10:05 +0200 Received: from 0x50a69ae6.virnxx16.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk ([80.166.154.230]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:10:05 +0200 Received: from be by 0x50a69ae6.virnxx16.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:10:05 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: metafont@ens.fr From: Brian Elmegaard Subject: Re: searching a metapost package Date: 29 Apr 2005 08:06:32 +0200 Organization: MEK, DTU Lines: 5 Message-ID: References: <20050428230803.A5350@bar.loria.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 0x50a69ae6.virnxx16.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 Sender: news X-Greylist: Recipient e-mail whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.5.10 (nef2.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]); Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:15:55 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on sophora.ens.fr X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=disabled version=3.0.2 My guess is that you are looking for latexmp? -- Brian (remove the sport for mail) http://www.et.dtu.dk/staff/be/be.html